Accusations of the Israeli occupation of Hungary

This is a guest post by Karl Pfeifer:

Hungary will elect a new parliament on April 11th and it looks as if the big völkisch opposition party Fidesz under the leadership of Viktor Orbán will be the strongest party, possibly even winning an outright majority. While there is obvious anti-semitism in Fidesz-related media, some of its journalists are attacking the national-socialist Jobbik party, which is leading an aggressive anti-semitic election campaign partly directed against its former godparents Fidesz. “Fidesz” is referred to as “Zsidesz” in Jobbik newspeak, i.e. the “Jewish” party. One of Fidesz leading anti-semitic journalists is Zsolt Bayer, for many years, as he admitted himself in an open letter addressed to Jobbik’s leader Gábor Vona, a member of the extreme right Turul-group. Now Zsolt Bayer states that he considers the even more extreme anti-semitism of Jobbik as shocking, and reminds Vona and Krisztina Morvai, Jobbik’s MEP, how Fidesz helped them in the past. Vona, no fool, answered with an open letter addressed to Bayer’s “boss” Viktor Orbán.

At a rally on Hungary’s national holiday commemorating the revolution against the Habsburgs on March 15th 1848 the Calvinist minister Lóránt Hegedüs Jr. raved against the apparent Israeli intention of occupying Hungary and, of course, against the Israeli “apartheid regime”.

The fantasy of an Israeli occupation of Hungary is based on a humorous remark by Israeli president Shimon Peres about the prowess of Israeli real estate agents: “We are buying Manhattan, Hungary, Romania and Poland.”

One of Jobbik’s election posters shows Shimon Peres with the Star of David and promises that Israel will not occupy Hungary.


Barikád, Jobbik’s weekly, depicts a prominent statue of a Catholic saint on a hill in Budapest with a menorah instead of a cross. Barikád calls on the inhabitants of Budapest to arise and asks its readers if they want to have a Jewish dominated Budapest. Karl Lueger, the anti-Semitic mayor of Vienna who hated Jews and Hungarians alike, once called Budapest “Judapest”. Jobbik seems to follow suit. Not unlike the Arrow Cross party of 1939 which was especially successful in Social democratic strongholds, when Social democrats suffered a crushing defeat. An outcome predicted again 71 years later.

Hungarian anti-semites who propagate the existence of an Israeli plan to occupy Hungary are either cynical or suffering from acute paranoia. Yet no Fidesz politician has commented on this madness in public for fear of losing voters. Fidesz tries to depict itself as a party of the middle between (the almost extinct) left and the extreme right. However, if Fidesz does not win a crushing victory at the elections and does not have an overall majority, it will have to decide who will be its coalition partner in government.

56 Responses to “Accusations of the Israeli occupation of Hungary”

  1. luny Says:

    Shimon Peres’s comment reveals two things: His lack of empathy for poor Israelis, and his indifference to anti-semitism, inasmutch as the two can not be used for propaganda purposes.

    The triumphalistic announcement “we Israelis are buying up Hungary” was made while this guy, a Holocaust survivor from Ukraine
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1108775.html
    was living on a Tel Aviv Park bench.
    A third of holocaust survivors living in Israel, thousands of them from Hungary, are living below the poverty line, just like millions of Israelis, both Jewish and Arab. Israel, with its “socialist tradition” and “labour president” is one of the more unequal societies in the world (see the Gini index, for example), even discounting the situation of the Palestinian workers who are now building settlements and picking Israeli fruit, or the African refugees cleaning Tel Aviv and Haifa.
    The billions of US aid and Holocaust reparations have made absolutely zero difference to Israel’s institutional poverty and inequality. They have, of course, largely been embezzled by the well-connected businnesmen to whom Peres was making that disgusting triumphalistic speech.

    And OF COURSE that speech was going to foment anti-Semitism. Peres knew it full well. He didnt care. In fact, he probably welcomed it. More victims of anti-semitism in Hungary will mean more gun fodder for the criminal army of which president Peres is now nominally in charge.

    Jobbik and Peres are equally disgusting racists. Only one, however, is a bloated and corrupt politician in a position of power.

  2. Jobbik-Wahlkampf auf dem Nationalfeiertag « Pusztaranger Says:

    [...] Blog/Pressespiegel: Accusations of the Israeli occupation of Hungary Hungarian Spectrum: Jobbik speeches on March 15 Pester Lloyd: Gefleddertes Erbe- Nationalistische [...]

  3. Karl Pfeifer Says:

    Luny, you blame Jews for antisemitism and for the paranoia of the Hungarian extreme right.
    And with that you are not satisfied, you accuse Peres to have said this in order to foment antisemitism in Hungary.
    It is the typical view of somebody, who has an antizionist agenda.
    The inequality in Israel has nothing to do with the national-socialist Jobbik.
    But of course also the Hungarian nazis rave about Israeli apartheid.
    Do you also blame the Hungarian Roma for anticiganism?
    Do you blame also Hungarian homosexuals for homophobia?
    And do you blame Israel, Peres and the Jews for violence in Hungary where in 2008/09 8 Roma were murdered?

  4. Absolutely Observer Says:

    Zionist Jews forment antisemitism so more Jews go to Israel to serve in the army and carry out the crimes that are inherent in the state and concept of Zionism and Israel.
    Zionists are neo-nazis.
    A perfect plan that only the wise can uncover.

    I haven’t chuckled so much for days. To paraphrase what is sung at soccer matches,
    “commenting on Israel – you’re having a laugh”.

  5. Absolutely Observer Says:

    Karl,
    Thanks for this. Is there a social-democratic party standing? If, so, how are they likely to fare? And where, In English, can I follw the Hungarian campaign?
    Thanks,
    AO

    • Karl Pfeifer Says:

      The chances for the soical democratic party are not the best.
      Luny should go and see a good doctor. Most Hungarian Jews who leave the country go to other countries and not to Israel. And Luny the Israeli army does not need “cannon fodder”
      A very good website in English ist Hungarian Spectrum of Eva Balogh. You will find on her website.
      http://esbalogh.typepad.com/
      goog links.
      PS
      I watched Shimon Peres on youtube, that was not a serious but an ironic remark. People like Luny don’t understand irony, it is above their I’Q.
      In Manhattan, Poland and Rumania people are not afraid of Israeli occupation (except some extreme rightist) in Hungary Jobbik is mobilising it’s voters with such crazy statements. The Israeli Army does not need gun-fodder. Enough young Israelis volunteer for the fighting units.
      This is all in the crazy imagination of Luny.

  6. Susan Says:

    I oppose settlements in the West Bank for many reasons. One of those reasons is that I support a Palestinian state, but let’s keep our perspective.

    This is written by Lanny Davis:

    ” Ramat Shlomo has been an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood going back to the 19th century. Even President Bill Clinton kept these neighborhoods under Israeli jurisdiction as part of his 2000 Camp David proposals — with then-Prime Minister Ehud Barak remarkably accepting Palestinian jurisdiction over Palestinian neighborhoods in East Jerusalem. Most of these historically Jewish neighborhoods are within 2.5 miles of the 1967 line, and some only a few hundred meters from it, contain some 200,000 Israelis, over 40 percent of the Jewish population of Jerusalem. If anything over the 1967 line in Jerusalem is a problem, is Israel to be condemned for building in the Jewish quarter of the Old City? Repairing the Western Wall? That has never been U.S. policy.”

  7. Guest Says:

    Hi folks,

    speaking about HUngary: check this out.

    http://english.cri.cn/6966/2010/03/19/189s557688.htm

    I think this “action” of the military was not very wise. The Hungarian rightwing is going to chew on that issue – no matter what´s behind it – for the next weeks. How come Politicians can be so stupid and allow such things to happen during campaign?? What about their IQ?

    Or was this only another “ironic” remark?

    • Sarah B Says:

      Once you get beyond the first four paragraphs it surely becomes clear this is a non-story?

      • Guest Says:

        I truly hope so. But right now in Hungary this is a topic…

      • Bill Says:

        Yes, but getting the sex and violence in “above the fold” is what it’s all about. IIRC, the rule for an editor to “spin” a story (like the flyover one) is to get the juicy bits up front in the first few paragraphs and then get let the air out of the balloon in the paragraphs below. When the story is distributed, quoted and such, subsequent editors who take the piece will lean on the top but not on the bottom — editing less up front, more afterwards. Send it down the chain (rather like a game of “telephone”) and it will be all about the sneaky and creepy flyovers and the fact that the flights were above board will be forgotten in the post-edits.

  8. Karl Pfeifer Says:

    Susan can you please explain, what the settlements have to do with the fact, that the extreme right is warning voter, Israel wants to colonize Hungary?
    Does it not bother you, that the National-Socialist Jobbik party is agitating against “Israel apartheid”?
    Krisztina Morvai MEP representing Jobbik in Strasbourg was invited this year to a pro-Palestinian meeting in London. And she is all the time warning Hungarians, that Hungary will not become Palestine.
    Is antisemitic agitation justified because of settlements on disputed territory?

    • Jonathan Romer Says:

      Karl,

      Most likely Susan simply posted a comment to the wrong thread. It doesn’t read like an attempt to make mischief; more like one that simply should have been posted under Israel/Palestine: the settlements are unsustainable, and Netanyahu knows it

    • Sarah Says:

      Karl – I *think* Susan meant to post on a different thread!

  9. Absolute Observer Says:

    With all respect to David Hirsh there now seems to be a rise in the “Tonge Formula”.
    1. Make a ridiculous claim.
    Israel going to Haiti for the harvesting of organs,
    2. Claim that Israel is on the verge of invading Hungary (and as SB says, it really is a non-story)
    3. Demand an investigation on said ridiculous claim.
    4, When such nonsense is rejected, imply that there really is something to hide and that there is “no smoke without fire” and, before long, it becomes a “fact” that hurtles around the blogosphere.

    Again this is hardly a new penomenon.

    • Bill Says:

      Oh the fun that could be had with that one!

      While tu quoque’s are at best ill mannered, the thought of taking a user of the Tonge Formula and pointing out that they just might have a kiddie porn dungeon in their basement, and call in the witchsmeller. After all, no smoke without fire in a crowded theatre, innuendo and out the other, and all that jazz!

      Of course, that wouldn’t work. We are expected to rise above everything, and the Tonges of the world need rise above nothing. We have to produce rational arguments backed up with fact, they need only say stuff. And then there is the reality of UK libel law that seems to protect the slime… uh… make that victims of fair, honest but damaging comment… from sunshine but not the other way around.

  10. Karl Pfeifer Says:

    @Guest@ it is a topic of a minority in Hungary; only fools or antisemitic paranoid people believe in it.
    And “Heti Válasz”has documented how false those accusations against Israel are.
    http://hetivalasz.hu/itthon/tevhitek-a-new-york-tel-aviv-tengely-terfoglalasarol-25468

  11. Absolute Observer Says:

    The “Guest” the question is what is it about Hugnary at the moment that allows this sort of antisemitic rubbish to be a live topic? What is so fundamentally wrong within the Hugnarian body politic that otherwise serious and sane people think that Israel is going to invade Hugnary. It is nuts; so why are Hugnarians believing it. That is the question in this instance, and not anything the Jews of Hungary or the Israelis are doing. It simply makes no sense.

  12. Absolute Observer Says:

    “I think this “action” of the military was not very wise.”

    There was no “action” – read the story. There was normality. Why does normality suddenly becomes invested with dark and mysterious meanings? Again, that is the question, not the noting of a regular flight by Israeli aircraft.

    Whilst the antisemitism in the UK and France “spikes” with (and distorts) Israel’s acts, in Hungary such a “rational” connection is lacking. Now, that is what is truly worring.

    Karl, any ideas?

  13. Guest Says:

    Krisztina Morvai was invited to a Pro-Palestinian meeting, but she was axed from it later. So she did not participate in the end. Even Palestinians, after realizing whom they invited as a speaker, don´t wanted to have anything to do with that right winger!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/15/krisztina-morvai-london-conference-ban

  14. Karl Pfeifer Says:

    @Guest@ Why in the first place did they invite her? and they did ask her not to come only after some Labour politicians said, that they are not going to participate if Morvai is there.
    I think – and I could be wrong – that the majority of Hungarians do not believe in such paranoid inventions.

  15. Karl Pfeifer Says:

    I just watched on youtube a demonstration of the national-socialist riffraff on April 2, 2009 in front of the house of the Hungarian prime minister Gordon Bajnai.
    Those of you understanding Hungarian but also others can watch it to get an idea about Jobbik, the Hungarian Guard and their ilk.
    at 1:27 Gábor Vona speaks about a pogrom, at 1:36 about a magyar Holocaust where Hungarians are the victims, at 2:24 the crowd demands weapons, at 2:39 Vona calls the prime minister a “traitor”, at 2:50 Vona calls for cooperation with Viktor Orbán the leader of völkisch Fidesz party.
    At 4:18 he speaks about “their ancestors have not fought” “our ancestors have fought” an antisemitic slur against the leaders of the left.
    Krisztina Morvai MEP for Jobbik at Strasbourg speaks at 5:48 about her presence at a meeting of palestinian fighters of Hamas and also HizbAllah and the encouragement she received from Hamas and HizbAllah.

    You can watch this on
    http://www.indavideo.hu/video/Jobbik-tuntetes_Bajnai_Gordon_hazanal

  16. Absolute Observer Says:

    “Even Palestinians, after realizing whom they invited as a speaker, don´t wanted to have anything to do with that right winger!”

    I think the meeting was arranged not so much by Palestinians as by European “supporters” of Palestinians.

    “The conference is promoted by the European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza.”

    Note also, that the retraction of invitiation was hardly one of “principled objection” to a rabid antisemite attending, but rather, that they did not “want to get into trouble”.

    “A spokesman for the campaign confirmed that Morvai’s invitation had been withdrawn following protests. “We did not want to get into trouble, so we decided to exclude her,” he said. “We want the conference to be about raising awareness about Palestine.”

    I guess the question also is why they did not do their research or though that a rabid fascist was an ok person to speak on the question of Israel and Palestine.

    But, of course, this is not the first time that British “supporters” of Palestine and Palestinians have had recourse to racist and antisemitic speakers and themes.

    One can only wonder if the Palestinians themselves know what is being done in the name of “support” for them?

    • Thomas Venner Says:

      Quite right. The Palestinians aren’t anywhere near as anti-Zionist or anti-Semitic as the white Europeans who claim to “support” them. In fact, a lot of Palestinians are pretty pissed off at what gets done in their name in Europe – a lot of Palestinian academics, for example, disparagingly refer to the so-called “Palestinian narrative” promoted by Western anti-Zionist historians as the “London narrative”. The “Palestine Telegraph” (which is still having trouble finding any Palestinian journalists willing to have their names associated with it) is viewed as a laughing stock in Palestine, at least among the small number of people who’ve even heard of it. The great irony of the whole thing is that, while anti-Zionists in this country insist that they’re only doing what the Palestinians want in their campaigns to delegitimise Israel, most of the Israeli and Palestinian people themselves generally get on fairly well together – look at the recent agreements set up by Israeli and Palestinian Trade Unions to make sure that Palestinian workers in Israel have proper union representation and vice versa (TULIP has the details on that, it’s worth reading just to see how far wrong certain Trade Unionists in the UK have gone). According to the One Voice Movement’s latest survey, a majority of Palestinians (about 65%, if I remember correctly) said that they found the idea of the “one-state solution” so beloved of Western anti-Zionists to be totally unacceptable, with about 75% supporting the two-state solution. The whole issue of Palestine as presented in the West is just being used as a smokescreen for good old-fashioned anti-Semitism. To the anti-Zionists over here, the Palestinians are only of any value if they can be used as ammunition against Israel.

      • Jonathan Romer Says:

        “To the anti-Zionists over here, the Palestinians are only of any value if they can be used as ammunition against Israel.”

        The use of Palestinians by all their friends, so-called, as a tool to damage Israel has done them more harm than anything Israel itself has done. The callousness with which Arab governments have called them ‘brother’ and then brutalised them in the name of the war against the Jews is equalled only by the willingness of western ‘pro-Palestinians’ to play along. Humans are not a nice species.

  17. NIMN Says:

    Considering that Hamas is funded by a Holocaust Denier and its charter is plagarised from the Protocols, one is not surpised that she was welcomes by them and Hizbullah.

    (Apolgies to those who would rather overlook these facts in the name of a juvenile “anti-imperialism” and the legitimate rights of Palestinian self-determination).

    One would have thought that the people orgainsing the conference in the UK would have at least some political judgement on these matters.

    • kanan48 Says:

      A legitimate Palestinian secular movement would expose the settler colonial style reality and the illegal occupation of Palestine, it’s not what the occupying state would like to face. An old article and reminder of how the state of Israel shapes its enemies. That is why Mosade helped financing Hamas: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

      • Karl Pfeifer Says:

        @kanan48@ what does your statement have to do with rampant antisemitism in Hungary?
        Why don’t you relate to subject matter?
        Because you seem to agree that antisemitism is justified and because you have only one subject matter you are interested in: bashing Israel.
        Probably because you have only one old record and the needle is stopping at your gramophone and repeats “colonial style reality” and “illegal occupation of Palestine”.
        However there is no “legitimate Palestinian secular movement” around except in Israel, where it is legal. So instead of repeating your mantra about Palestine, why don’t you go there – for instance to Gaza – and try it out to found a “secular movement”. And if they stone you, or throw you off a high building, don’t blame Mossad, but your own bad luck.
        And your globalresearch is a propaganda outlet of Iran, which is not exactly secular.

        • kanan48 Says:

          My respond was for NIMN, and his understanding of Hamas.
          You can’t hide the colonial settler society you are defending. Living off disposition of others and then demonizing them, it’s a familiar story.
          keep the “antisemitism” to yourself, at least try to understand it.

        • Jonathan Romer Says:

          As Karl guessed: Stuck record.

        • kanan48 Says:

          “Karl” this name sounds very middle Eastern to me.
          Here is another story kind of similar, a bouncer from Moldavia became a foreign minster in a country where its native population, who lived there for centuries, has no right of return to their land and homes, and the same minster now wants to be sure that everyone is loyal to his new country!!!
          This is the democracy you claim, like the old “democratic” South African regime, which has also its “elites” to defend it, but it was an apartheid and democracy for the white settlers only.

        • Karl Pfeifer Says:

          @kanan48@ It is the last resort of scoundrels to criticise a person because of his name.
          Again, you seem to have been brainwashed, for you have only one mantra. Questions I have asked you remain unanswered.
          So pray, why do you make me an Austrian citizen, who has no right to vote in Israel responsible for an Israeli minister?
          Why don’t you relate to the subject matter of my article?
          Because you hate Jews and feel it is justified what the national-socialist Jobbik does. However your horizon is very limited, because if you would be able to employ the grey cells of your brain, you would find out that some Jewish Hungarians especially young ones find it better to live in Israel than in Hungary.
          Anyway in Israeli hospitals Arabs and Jews are staying in the same rooms, Arab doctors operate on Jews and vice versa. Also in the Knesseth the Israeli parliament 10 Arab Members are sitting and there is an Arab minister in the Israeli government.
          And look at another important thing. While in apartheid South Africa any sexual contact between “Whites” “Coloured” and “Black” were forbidden, no such legislation exists in Israel. By the way kanan48 is in any Muslim country a Moslem woman allowed to marry a Christian or a Jew?
          And now that I gave you some answers to your statements why for a change don’t you answer my questions referring to my article.
          Is the antisemitic incitement of Jobbik O.K. because Jobbik declares to be pro-Palestinian? Is their incitement against gypsies O.K. because they are pro-Iranians? Is their Homophobia O.K. because Homophobia is part of the ideology of the Moslem brotherhood and the Iranian rulers?

        • kanan48 Says:

          Again, you jumped in to respond at my comment to NIMN, anyway I’ll keep the low level of attacking others to you, all i care about is exposing the occupation and the fact that you have no right to judge people who lost their home because of “some Jewish Hungarians especially young ones find it better to live in Israel than in Hungary.” Really? I have to say here, this is really stupid to mention this “fact”.
          If you see my last comment as criticizing you based on your name, then you didn’t get the point. I tried to show Two examples, the first someone his name Karl from Austria wants to put his nose and involve in the lives of Omar, Suhaa, and Munir and criticize their society which is the results of your European colonialism, maybe you need to go and grab the land of India as well, they burn women there!! And the second example is a bouncer from Moldavia wants them to be loyal to the occupation state. There is nothing about your “vote”!!
          This picture would say it all:

          “It is part of morality not to be at home in one’s home.”
          - Edward Said

        • kanan48 Says:

          I tried to insert a picture in my last comment But I can’t see it.
          Here is the link:
          http://kanan48.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/anna-baltzer-and-haithem-el-zabri.jpg

        • Karl Pfeifer Says:

          @kanan48@ You come here with your sheer demagogy.
          you don’t care about exrreme right in Hungary. All you want to do is to bring your mantra. O.K. here is my answer.
          you consider somebody who was born in fourth generation in Beirut still a Palestinian refugee. No other refugee can inherit his status as refugee. Here United Nations do as if the unjustice of having fled ones country would have been limited to Palestinians.
          But why don’t you stand up for the Human Rights of those people who are borne in third and fourth generation in Lebanon. Do you consider it just, that such a person has no right to citizenship, no right to own land or a house, no right to work?
          The fact of the matter is, more than half a million Jews had to flee from Arab countries or were expelled. Israel integrated them. And take into consideration, Jews in Israel do not want to live like dhimmis. They know very well how ethnic and religious minorities live in the Arab world.
          So you can come with propaganda pictures b u t you are unable to answer my questions. You are not interested in a dialogue only in your mantra. So go on like that old gramophone and keep saying “apartheid”, “colonisalism”. You are a bore.

  18. zkharya Says:

    I’m writing here in frustration. What’s going on at HP is terrible. Even if I can get on the site, as soon as I write something in the comments box and go to post it, its Database Error, again.

    I want to write posts supporting David T, but it won’t let me.

  19. NIMN Says:

    Kanan

    Fact: No one is demonizing Palestinians or Palestine. Unless support for a sovereing state of Palestine is “dominizing”.
    Fact: Hamas is an antisemitic orgainization,
    a. in its charter,
    b.in its denial of the legitimate right to Jewish national self-determination.
    c. in its colonial enterprise in destroying Israel – and other sovereign states, in the name of pan-Islamicism
    Fact: Hamas is funded by Iran – an antisemitic regime (Iran) headed by a Holocaust denier and one who has called for genocide of Jews in Israel.
    Fact: Israel is not an “illegal settler colony”. It is a legal legitimate country.
    Fact: It is illegally occupying the West Bank. This is to be opposes.
    Fact: Israel is not an apartheid state. Racist practices do occur in the West Bank. Civil racism exists in Israel as it does in all states.
    Fact: Many expressions of hatred aimed at Israel are antisemitic.
    Fact: Many antisemites use that antizionist bandwagon to perpetuate their views.
    Fact: Many of us “understand” antisemitism, but have the sense to oppose it, no matter what brngs it into the world (i.e. the acts of Jews as Jews.)
    Fact: In your hatred of Israel you are willing to ally with antisemites and neo-nazis.
    Fact: Everything wrong with those who claim to support the Palestinians is contained in your banal cliched comments.

    • Jonathan Romer Says:

      NIMN,

      Well put — with one exception. It is widely accepted, though not incontrovertible, that Israeli settlement of the West Bank is illegal, but that’s not the same as saying the occupation itself is. Explain to me the facts of that.

  20. Absolute Observer Says:

    Kanan’s position is that Israel can never be legitimate; regardless of international law and legal recognition.
    Thus, of the 200 countures, only Israel, the Jewish state, is illegitimate.
    And he talks about “demonization! ha ha.

    Perhaps he can tell us, which other countries in the 20th century was born without violence and expulsion and explain why he is not demanding there destruction. And, also, why only the Jewish state raises his ire to such a degree.

    • kanan48 Says:

      Maybe you need to address you questions to Ben Gurion:
      “I don’t understand your optimism.,” Ben-Gurion declared. “Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations’ time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it’s simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipes us out”.
      “But how can you sleep with that prospect in mind,” I broke in, “and be Prime Minister of Israel too?”
      Who says I sleep? he answered simply. (The Jewish Paradox by Nahum Goldman, p. 99)
      By the way I, as secular, don’t understand his use of religion, he used to claim that he is a secular, but in the same time: “Sure, God promised it to us”, notice word “Sure”. We need to see the messages or emails between him and god to believe it.

  21. Curious Says:

    Why is it that whenever Engage raises the existence of antisemitism (in this case, fascist antisemitism( do posters come along and change the subject to Israel?

    I am aware that “Zionists” are accused of stifling debate on Israel, but was unaware that “anti-Zionists” not only stifle talk about antisemitism, but in “understanding” it (i.e. blaming Israel) remain silent in the face of it.

    It would see that posters here think collaboration with neo-nazis a “progreesive” stance. This is not a good thing.

    • Karl Pfeifer Says:

      @Curious@ excellent question. The point is, some advocates of the Palestinian cause remind me of an old gramophone when the needle is stuck and they repeat “Apartheid” “colonialism” “Holocaust of Palestinians” etc.
      So everyone who repeats this mantra – and the Hungarian national-socialist Jobbik does – is a welcome partner against “Jewish World conspiracy”.
      And that is also the reason, why so many Palestinians and Muslims deny the Holocaust. Their sick logic says: The state of Israel could be founded, because there was a Holocaust. Let’s deny it and then there is no need for a State of Israel.
      Forgetting, that millions of Israeli Jews are borne in Israel and that many of those Israelis have ancestors who had to flee Arab countries or who were outright expelled from Arab countries.
      And of course radical Israel bashers deny also that there is antisemitism in Europe or elsewhere. On the other hand they do not understand, that by denying what is obvious they themselves transport an antisemitic agenda.

  22. kanan48 Says:

    I can’t explain any thing to some one believe, it’s moral to live of the disposition of others.
    I don’t know if this comments would show on your blog, or maybe it is not moderate.

  23. Lynne T Says:

    Karl:

    Not quite right. What some Palestinians and Mahmoud Ahmedinejad claim is that there was no holocaust against European Jews, but European Jews have committed a holocaust against the Palestinians, and, of course, there is no need for a Jewish state at the expense of Palestinian Arabs as Muslim countries have a history of graciousness and tolerance towards Jews and other non-Muslims.

  24. Karl Pfeifer Says:

    kanan48@ I dislike your views and your attitude which is very siminlar to that of BNP. After all Muslims in the UK
    according to your view believe “it’s moral to live of the disposition of others.” Most of them came because they wanted to have a better life. Many Jews came to Israel because of antisemitism. Your answer to that: Yok antisemitism, there is no such thing as antisemitism.
    It seems to be useless to discuss with you.

    • kanan48 Says:

      If you keep using the word antisemitism over and over then try to get the meaning of the term which is about RACISM, and as humans we all should understand it as whole and not every one or group has his spacial victim day, and his or her suffering is greater then others or try to compare.
      I would like to ask you couple simple questions: What is the different between racism and antisemitism?
      Have you heard of someone his name August Ludwig von Schlözer? Because we need to talk about the first who used the term and based on what kind of studies he made the term, bible, and why a term from 1780s belong to linguistic study in the middle east became a term for racism?
      am I a racist for asking these questions? or based on your logic: Am I a Antisemitic?

      • Gil Says:

        Kanan48, the fact that you hijacked a thread about neo-Nazis in Hungary to rant on about: 1. the fact that the Jews don’t have a right to a home in Palestine (the Jews are the original Palestinians) and 2. your above ‘Mossad conspiracy theory’ post, prove that you are not someone qualified to ask about antisemitism and racism.

        It’s your attitude that is so suspect.

    • kanan48 Says:

      Your example is very week. every human being, regardless of his religion or background, has the right to move anywhere to seek and have a better life, as long as he or she is not reflecting harm to the hosting community. You can’t call this occupation. I am wondering now if you understand really what does mean occupation?
      Maybe you think that Muslims are occupying Britain?
      On the other hand i understand your worries about the growing fundamentalism, and it is a nightmare, for these crazies if I announced my atheism I would be killed, but lets ask why this mentality is taking place? is there a problem with these people physically or they are reacting to harsh circumstances? Do you want to be fair and search for the roots of the issue or just blame the victims for their backward mind? It’s your choice to be objective or to hide behind one side and play the game of blames.

  25. Absolutely Observer Says:

    As far as I am aware, the concept of “occupation” is a legally recognised concept; so I take your point. The occupiers are under specific duties and obligations which, as you imply, does not include settlements and various other aspects of Israeli practices there.

  26. kanan48 Says:

    I am sorry if I repeated a similar comment I thought the first did not go through.

  27. Karl Pfeifer Says:

    @Gil @ absolutely right, he has hijacked the discussion. The fellow has a one track mind. All he is interested in is to spread his mantra. Even patient and polite people can get nervous reading his text.
    And of course he hasn’t got a clue about immigration. There is to my knowledge not one European country which allows unrestricted immigration. And in many countries the immigrants belonging to the majority ethnic community get easier the permit to come than others. Israel is not the only example for this as he tries to tell us. And in Israel it has the importance that Jews have one country on earth where they can go, if persecuted or discriminated. When Jews needed such a country 70-75 years ago, most countries of the world closed their doors for Jewish immigration.
    He has nothing against Hungarian Jobbik, because Jobbik is “pro-Palestinian” meaning pro-Hamas and pro-HizbAllah. It makes no sense to discuss with him. Because he is – so it seems – mentally not capable to dialogue with others. Seems to me like a politically autistic person.
    And he is pathetic, complaining that in his society they would kill him because of his atheism and then attacking the only state in the Middle East where an Arab can be without risk to his life be atheistic or homosexual (I do not equate the two).
    I wish discussion could be returned to subject matter of my short article.

  28. Absolutely Observer Says:

    What is the difference between racism and antisemitism?

    Well, racism is accepted as an unconditional wrong.
    Antisemitism is seen as a lie, a weapon and, as Kanan expresses it, a claim to special privileges; including that of “disposssession”.

    Kanan then asks why there is a special term for anti-Jewish racism? In so doing he seems to blame the Jews for the special attention given to them by antisemites; as a unique type of racism.

    He then seeks to challenge the specifics of antisemitism by submerging it into a universal category of racism; and, in so doing, denies the unique suffering of Jews, and in so doing, translates “unique” into a heirarchical order which, he implies, gives Jews a special dispensation and privilege.

    A typical move by those who argue, in contradiction with themselves that,
    a. there is nothing unique about antisemitism (as if all histories of racism aren’t unique); and. b. by arguing that antisemitism is unique, Jews are privileged.

    Perhaps one could of course ask him or her to be consistent.

    If there is nothing unique about antisemitism, then there is nothing unique about Zionism and so Jewish national self-determination is legitimate as anyone else’s, so what can the reason be for his demonizing of Israel? That is exists where another people lived before (as many still do)? Well, that’s hardly unique in the birth of modern (and pre-modern) nations? That there were expulsions at the time of Israel’s creation? well, hardly, unique. That those who were expelled will be bitter? Well, that’s hardly unique.

    As with so many other people, Kanan thinks that there is something “special” about Jews and their history that allows different rules to apply than to any other people; and he does so by exploiting and abusing Jewish history, by repeating the “chosen people” line.

    What is worse, he does it at the same time as he denies the uniqueness of Jewish history (as all people’s history is “unique” (including antisemitism) by subsuming it into the universal caterogry of “racism”.

    Not only does he want to wipe Israel off the face of the map as a nation-state amongst many, but so too does he want to deny the specifics of Jewish history.

    So, to clarify.

    Racism is the unique history of most of Africa
    Independence is unique to speciifc and unique countries in Africa.
    Kanan denies neither.

    Antisemitism is part of the unique history of the Jewish people.
    Israel is unique in that it is a Jewish state.

    Kana thinks by denying the first, he can deny the second.

    Maybe that is why he is silent about the topic on this thread.

  29. Demonization, Hungarian-Style « Jordan Ink. Says:

    [...] The statue of St. Gellert, perched high above the scenic panorama of Budapest … holding a Jewish menorah, a religious candelabra. Translation: “The Jews control and strangle us.”(It also plays to another favorite canard, that Israel is scheming to occupy Hungary.) http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/accusations-of-the-israeli-occupation-of-hungary/ [...]

  30. Cosmoproletarian Solidarity: Das Volk marschiert, das Kapital wurzelt Says:

    [...] israelischen Staatspräsidenten Peres zu sehen, das einen geschwärzten Davidstern halb verdeckt, kontrastiert wird dies mit dem Symbol der Pfeilkreuzler, der ungarischen Schwesterpartei der NSDAP, und dem [...]


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