Sadly nowhere if free of scumbags. The response to the atrocity in the comments sections of papers like the Telegraph was enough to turn my stomach. I had no wish to cast my net wider. I’m glad I didn’t
The comments cited are, as pointed out, little different from many made in other countries. I am not sure why you have singled out Israel’s in particular.
Surely whether the murderer is or is not is antisemitic is irrelevant, unless of course one thinks that because Jews were the nazis chosen victims, then than puts Jews in Israel and elsewhere under a higher moral obligation than non-Jews when confronted with deeds like this.
Where it might be relevant, however, is in reminding some Jews and some “critics of Israel” alike that in the UK and elsewhere that even though groups like the EDL who wave the Israeli flag, there ideology is premised on far-right neo-nazi claptrap; that a group that hates Muslims aren’t going to be particularly disposed to Jews – wherever they live. (Indeed, their professed love of Israel is a much based on their being pleased Jews are no longer in Europe, as of provoking both Jews and Muslims both as individual groups and of driving a wedge between them; a game of provocation that, as noted above both some Jews, some Muslims and some anti-zionists fall for).
They are NOT “little” different. They are VERY different from many made in other countries. That is why he has singled out Israel’s in particular. Most of the other countries are sending condolences or saying that Norway will probably change the way it does business. The comments of the Israelis quoted are saying basically that since Norway doesn’t support Israeli policy against the Palestinians screw Norway and good that it happened. Which other country’s posters is saying that Norway doesn’t like their treatment of another group so they are reciprocating by feeling joy or at the least indifference towards that sad tragedy in Oslo???!! NONE.
Your opening sentence is FALSE on its face. You’re obviously being disingenuous and you KNOW fully well why he’s singled out Israel in particular. Wanna prove me wrong? Then answer my last question in my preceding paragraph above.
“The comments of the Israelis quoted are saying basically that since Norway doesn’t support Israeli policy against the Palestinians screw Norway and good that it happened. Which other country’s posters is saying that Norway doesn’t like their treatment of another group so they are reciprocating by feeling joy or at the least indifference towards that sad tragedy in Oslo???!! NONE.”
Rich, you wanna [sic] play this disgusting game, then ok, I am prepared to enter the gutter with you for a moment.
Here are some comments of those who think that because of Israel’s “treatment of another group so they are reciprocating by feeling joy or at the least indifference towards that sad tragedy”
“In a recent interview, Norway’s ambassador to Israel has suggested that Hamas terrorism against Israel is more justified than the recent terrorist attack against Norway. His reasoning is that “we Norwegians consider the occupation to be the cause of the terror against Israel.” In other words terrorism against Israeli citizens is the fault of Israel. The terrorism against Norway, on the other hand, was based on “an ideology that said that Norway, particularly the Labor Party, is foregoing Norwegian culture.” It is hard to imagine that he would make such a provocative statement without express approval from the Norwegian government.”
This position is more common that one thinks,
Here is a commentary on the SPSC,
These comments come from a Norwegian diplomat, a former UK government minister and a leading pro-Palestinian/anti-Zionist group (the two not being the same). They are a far cry from lunies in their bedroom, probably in a settlement in the occupied Palestinian territories.
Has anyone asked how could a man from a country occupied by the Nazis espoused such racist garbage? So, I am not sure what the big deal is about Israeli far-right racists.
Prior to the killings 50% of Norwegians expressed the view that “”Muslim immigration into Norway is a problem”. If this stat correct then 50% Norwegians fall into what Charles Brooker rightly identified as “this was terrible, but…………”
Can we assume that in the wake of this artocity, Norwegians are suddenly going to become political and moral saints? and that the next time a Norwegian person expresses a racist sentiment people should react with an excess of moral outrage over and above the “normal” reaction such hate speech should engender.
Are people now going to say, “As a Norwegian, how can you say that?”
I hope not.
First thing: CNN is a zionist mouthpiece and the zionists are thieves and murderers.
zionists are the problem – they are the new Nazis – they are racists and they will start WWIII – just so they can continue stealing Arab lands and kill innocent women and children.
I hate zionism and I say let’s hurry up and have WWIII because in the end there will be no more israel – it will be wiped off the face of the earth and all surviving zionists will be hunted down and given what they deserve.
Assuming for the moment that the writer is sincere in these sentiments; it is chilling that it should appear in the current thread.
Perhaps someone needs to take responsibility for the environment that creates this way of thinking in the same way that the more irresponsible segments of the right and the entirety of the far-right need to think seriously about the environment they have created and out of which these murders emerged.
As we have seen, JJfP constantly post material that speaks of a malevolent Lobby; SPSC speak of “international Jewry”, at least one PSC member spoke about the Mossad being behind the murders without any reprimand, UCU members link to neo-nazi sites and other members defend it or justify it. The UCU vote against definitions of antisemitism that leave the majority of its Jewish members unprotected. The UCU and BDS seek to exclude Israel ad only Israel from the community of states. A Liberal Democratic peer say that Israel harvests organs. Slogans and chants that state “Death to the Jews” appear again on the streets of Europe and so on and so on.
Drip, drip, drip – the result – posts like the one above.
Norwegian Ambassador to Israel: About terrorist attacks on innocent civilians:
“ההבדל הוא שהפלסטינים שתוקפים את ישראל באמצעות פיגועים. לא משנה כמה זה לא מקובל ונורא, הם עושים זאת במטרה מוגדרת הקשורה בכיבוש
הישראלי. יש שם יסודות של נקמה בישראל ושנאה לישראל. לזה אפשר להוסיף את האלמנט הדתי בפעולותיהם. בכל מקרה יש מוטיב עיקרי למעשים שלהם.
The difference is that Palestinians are attacking Israel through the means of terrorist actions. Never mind how unacceptable or terrible it is, they are doing this with a defined goal that is related to the Israeli occupation. There are elements of revenge against Israel and hatred of Israel. To this you can add the religious dimension to their actions. In any case, there is a principle motive to their actions. (Translation: Camera)
“במקרה של הפיגוע בנורבגיה יש לרוצח אידיאולוגיה שאומרת שנורבגיה, ובמיוחד מפלגת הלייבור, מוותרת על התרבות הנורבגית. אני יכול להעיר שאם האיש הזה נגד הגירה ונגד מוסלמים, זה מדהים שהוא לא הרג מוסלמים אלא פוליטיקאים נורבגים, ומנסה להרוס את האדמינסטריציה בנורבגיה
In the case of the attack in Norway the murderer’s ideology maintains that Norway, and especially the Labour party, is selling out Norway and its culture. I can comment that if this man is against immigration and Muslims, it is amazing that he did not kill Muslims but Norwegian politicians, and is trying to destroy the Norwegian administration. (Translation: Noga)
Interpretation: We shouldn’t beat about the bush. The bottom line is you Israelis, deserve it. We, Norwegians, do not.
And my favourite Israeli journalist, Ben-Dror Yemini, weighs in with an explicit version of the same view, in his usual, no-nonsense, clarity:
2. לפי דוח שפורסם לפני חודשים אחדים בנורבגיה, רוב מוחלט של מעשי האונס בשנים האחרונות בוצעו על ידי “לא מערביים”. כלומר מהגרים. בעיקר מוסלמים. ממשלת נורבגיה עוצמת עיניים. היא אינה נוקטת בשום צעד רציני כדי לבלום את האלימות, את הפשיעה, את ההתנחלות והכיבוש, את ההשתלטות הזרה על המדינה, שבעוד עשרות שנים בודדות תהפוך למוסלמית.
זו הסיבה שפעיל הימין, אנדרס בריוויק, פגע במשרדי הממשלה ומשם המשיך לכנס של דור ההמשך של מפלגת השלטון. פעמיים נפגע בריוויק על ידי מהגרים שבאו לכבוש את ארצו. אטימות הממשלה היא שהובילה אותו למצוקה, לאין מוצא, ובהמשך לפעולת ההתנגדות.
הדברים שנכתבו עד כאן הם הבל גמור. משום שמי שמוצא הצדקות לרצח, לטבח, לטרור, הוא שותף לפשע. מותר לבקר מדיניות הגירה. אבל בין ביקורת לטבח אין ולא צריך להיות שום קשר ובוודאי לא הצדקה. ובכלל, גם אם רוב מעשי הפשע והאונס מבוצעים על ידי מהגרים, זה לא אומר שכל המהגרים הם פושעים ואנסים.
העניין הוא, שזו בדיוק הרטוריקה שכל כך התרגלנו אליה. רטוריקה של הבנה לטרור, ובהמשך הצדקה. ולא רק רטוריקה. קשה קצת לשכוח את המשטים והמצעדים הקבועים של חברי הקואליציה האדומה-ירוקה. רדיקלים משמאל וג’יהדיסטים איסלאמיסטים. מי שמבקר את הרב-תרבותיות לא צועד יחד עם טרוריסטים ולא מחפש הצדקות לטבח. הרדיקלים משמאל, לעומת זאת, נמצאים בצד של החמאס והטרור. יחי ההבדל הקטן
According to a report published a few months ago in Norway, the dominant majority of rape cases in the recent years were perpetrated by “non-Western” individuals, that is to say, immigrants, especially Muslims. The Norwegian government is turning a blind eye and does nothing to thwart this violence, the crime, the expansion and take-over, the foreign invasion on the state that in a few decades will be Islamized.
This is the reason that this right wing activist, Andres Breivik, targeted the government offices and proceeded to attack the next-generation of the governing party. Twice Breivik has been hurt by immigrants who had come to occupy his country. The government’s inaction caused his distress and eventually led him to commit these acts.
All of the above is total nonsense. Anyone who seeks to justify murder, massacres, terror, is complicit in the crime. It is permissible to criticize immigration policies but there cannot be any connection between criticism of immigration and massacres. And even if most crimes and rapes are done by immigrants it doesn’t follow that all immigrants are criminal and rapists.
The problem is that we are accustomed to exactly this type of routine rhetoric. A rhetoric that shows understanding towards terror becomes, in due course, a justification, not just rhetoric. It’s hard to forget the flotillas and the routine marches of the red-green alliance: Radicals from the Left and Islamist jihadists, in lock-step. Those who criticize multiculturalism do not march with terrorists or try to find justifications for massacres. The Left radicals, however, are on the side of Hamas. Vive la petite différence. (Translated by noga)
“Those who criticize multiculturalism do not march with terrorists or try to find justifications for massacres”.
Not sure that is right at all. Seems like he’s saying we are all goof, they are all bad.
Indeed, the internet is full of people saying, “Whilst I don’t agree what he has done, one can understand why people are not happy because of [so-called] mass immigration”. This echoes the EDL’s mafia like threat; that if something is not done about immigration/Muslims/Islam (or whatever they rant on about), then don’t be surprised if the same thing happens here (although the distance between the EDL and terrorists is not as wide as that between posters on threads and violence, or at least most of them).
Here is Seamus Milne’s take on it. Essentially I think he is right, but falls a bit short of universalising his own insights
“Has anyone asked how could a man from a country occupied by the Nazis espoused such racist garbage?”
AO, have you read Searchlight lately? The same question could (and perhaps should) be asked of Holland, Belgium, France, Denmark: and that’s just in western Europe. All these countries have small but significant far-right groupings, some more vicious and violent than others, but all of them dangerous. Why single Norway out with your question.
Good point – see also the attempts in those countries to prohibit the barbarians’ practice of Halal and Kosher which, at least in Holland has the support of the Freedom Party – the true bearers of European values!!
charity begins at home
“…As today’s Jewish Chronicle reports (with analysis by my colleague Mike Whine), a similar pattern is starting to develop after the terrorist attack in Oslo last week. This allegation is based on two ideas: either that Breivik was so pro-Zionist that he actually carried out the attack under orders from Israel; or that his desire to kill so many of his compatriots was a result of absorbing Zionist values. In both cases, the fact that the people at the Labour Party youth camp where he committed mass murder had been discussing Israel/Palestine a couple of days before the attack is presented as prima facie evidence.
The first way of thinking – that Israel actually carried out the attack – is represented by Ellie Merton, chair of Waltham Forest Palestine Solidarity Campaign:
Just re-watched Hillary Clinton’s statement about the Norwegian terror atrocity, and she looks 300 per cent shifty, implying she knows exactly who did it and why, and she’s embarrassed about it was ‘her’ guys – an Israel government-sponsored operation.
As far as I can see, globally, Christian far-right white supremacists work hand in hand with Zionist fascists, since their aims are mutually inclusive.
Here, Merton is suggesting that Breivik carried out the attack with direct assistance from the Israeli government. PSC told the Jewish Chronicle that her comments “do not represent our views”, but there is no indication that Merton has been disciplined in any way by the organisation, or at the very least reprimanded for her comments. PSC, it should be said, enjoy the patronage and support of several Trades Unions and regularly feature Members of Parliament on their platforms….”
The whole disgusting business of exploiting the tragedy to score political points – this is, in my humble opinion, the main issue that should be discussed and condemned, before we go into analysis of that or another scored point. More:
Your use of capital letters, the tone of your comments and the sheer irrationality of your argument indicates that your post would be better placed on the thread concerning “conspiracy theories” along with the statements on many sites in the UK and elsewhere (many far from marginal) that place the blame either directly or indirectly on Israel and Zionism.
Be that as it may, you may want to note the fact that Israel “like most countries” was one of the first to send its condolensies (after all, it has known its fair-share of terrorist attacks).
“In the letter the President wrote: “The people of Israel are shocked and share the grief of the people of Norway on the despicable murder of innocent civilians and innocent youth. Our hearts are with the bereaved families who have lost that which is most dear to them. We pray for the speedy recovery of the wounded.”(http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/146003#.Tj2cj83PWeY)
Please notice also that many websites in the UK and elsewhere sought to excuse the murders as a consequence of a righteous indignation to the policies of “multiculturalism” believing that Norway brought it on itself (see the article by Charles Brooker).
Please note, to site one horrific example, that on a US Tea Party site that Breviek should be voted “Man of the Year”.
But of course, for you, ,and as others have argued, the comments of Israeli far-right bloggers speaks the truth about Israel, hence your inability to distinguish between these people and the state of Israel as represented by its President (a distinction you imply you recognise in “most countries” apart from Israel).
According to your “logic”, one is to treat Breivek (a blogger prior to his murders, see his “manifesto”) as speaking the “truth” about Norway (an argument made by neo-nazis and racists) or the Tea Party blogger the “truth” about the United States.
Consequently, Rich, you are either arguing in bad faith (precisely the accusation you level at me), or you are either very stupid (confusing far-right bloggers with the country as a whole) or a neo-nazi (a person who believes nazis and racists encapsulates the truth of a given state).
Which one of those you are is of little importance to me.