Don’t buy from the Jews!

April 27, 2009 — David Hirsh
Don't buy from the Jews!

Don't buy from the Jews!

Posted in boycott divestment & sanctions. 99 Comments »

99 Responses to “Don’t buy from the Jews!”

  1. Laura Says:
    April 27, 2009 at 11:09 pm

    Please give this a citation. Who? Where? When?

    Reply
  2. Susan Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 1:43 am

    If this happened in America someone would have called the cops, and they would have been arrested. They certainly were not going to pay for those items. I wonder what would have happend to a shopper who tried to buy any of those items. Jews and pro-Israel organziation don’t use these tactics. L’Oriel is not and Israeli company. I don’t know why it was attacke.

    Reply
  3. Inna Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 2:05 am

    So what happened to the goods they took? Did they steal from the Jews (in their effort to be anti-racist of course) or did they pay for all the goods they took?

    If the former, I hope the police arrested them. The video should be used as evidence of their illegal activities.

    Regards,

    Inna

    Reply
  4. Rosso Verde Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 7:12 am

    Whatever you think of the boycott the juxtaposition of the Boycotters with the Nazi’s is vile!

    Reply
    • LouieinLA Says:
      April 28, 2009 at 11:30 pm

      VILE? Why? It is EXACTLY THE SAME DECLARATION!
      Vile because the protesters were on the Left instead of the Right? Its amazing what passes for logic from fascists, whichever side of the aisle they’re on.

      Reply
  5. raphael Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 9:07 am

    (3:02)

    “tous ceux qui soutiennent Israel, regardez ce qui vous attend” – while dumping Loreal products… –

    “voila, c’est vide maintenant. On ne veut plus de ces produits chez nous. On est chez nous ici, pas en Israel, on est chez nous, c’est la France.”

    “All those who support Israel, watch what is coming for you”
    “Here you go, it’s empty now. We don’t want these products in our place. It’s our place here, not Israel. We are in our country here, this is France”

    3min47

    “Ils tuent des bebes et apres ils veulent vendre des lingettes pour bebe”

    “they kill babies and then they want to sell wipes for babies”

    really disgusting stuff…

    Raphael

    Reply
  6. spirit level Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 9:13 am

    Let us be quite clear, Israel is a terrorist state. It has inflicted cruelty without mercy upon the noble Palestinian people. Israel is built upon racism, genocide & ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. Israel steals land & resources from the indigenous Palestinians. USA & UK and EU need to understand that the ordinary people will not tolerate this wicked facist barbarity. Unite for the palestinian cause all those of morals and conscience!! Viva Palestine!!!

    Reply
    • Yitzhak Santis Says:
      May 7, 2009 at 6:39 pm

      Genocide? If Israel is committing genocide it is doing a lousy job. Afterall, when compared the genocides of the Jews, Armenians, Bosnians — all of which lost a significant portion of their populations– the Palestinians are coming out ahead. 1.5 million Palestinans in 1948 compared to about 6 million today. Damn! I wish Hitler would have given us Jews such a genocide!

      Your problem is your faux- revolutionary tone and language is matched only by it’s hyperbole and lacking utterly any intelligent or original content. Where did you get this rhetoric from anyway, a handbook left over from Stalin’s Mimistry of Propaganda?

      Reply
  7. Siggy Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 10:00 am

    I love these “whatever you think about” arguments
    Whatever you think about Ahmenijhad, the issue is……
    Whatever you think about attacks on Jews, the real issue is
    Whatever you think about Hamas and its use of the Protocols, the real issue is……….
    Whatever you think about the resurgence of antisemitism the real issue is……………….

    Now, today, an organised cohort of green (and why green?) shirts go into store in what amounts to military formation. They make public speeches about the “criminal” acts of the Jewish state; about its criminality; and tell people not to buy those Jews’ produce.

    It is a boycott of Jews and only Jews.

    Of course, fellow travellers like yourself will say, oh, but it is anti-Israel and not anti-Jewish? Well, really! Ask yourself what other countries# produce is in that store? Ask yourself why it is on the Jewish state that is the object of such actions. Ask yourself what resonance it has with the history of antisemitism; then, ask yourself what is and is not “vile”?

    Reply
  8. Nora Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 10:16 am

    This time they searched stor shelves, next time they will search to see what people are buying.

    Boycotts start with Jews but they don’t end with Jews. THis is a lesson that should have been learned from the Nazi experience.

    Besides, the boycotters wore uniforms that told Jews to beware.

    Reply
  9. zkharya Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 11:17 am

    spirit level,

    you confirm that such as you regard Israel as the Jew among the nations even as your predecessors regarded Israel as the Jew among the nations before the Jewish state of Israel existed.

    But you are probably too ignorant to know what that means.

    Your spirit level is evidently down amid the depths, along with your wisdom and intelligence.

    Reply
  10. rlgordonma Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 11:44 am

    spirit level,

    Let’s say for the sake of argument that you’re right (but you’re not). Let’s say Israel is a terrorist state. The what is China? India? These, too, are countries that have land that others claim are their’s. Are you to steal all their products off shelves?

    O, or maybe you’re protesting Israel’s treatment of Arabs. Maybe you should also be angry at Gulf Arabs at their treatment of their (majority) Indian and Filipino workers.

    But clearly none of your kind care about that. It’s the Jews in your midst, the annoying ones that, over and over are smart enough to counter your brand of bull and cockamamie lies. Israel has problems, I don’t deny that, but the minute you apply a standard of behavior to it that you do not apply to other contries, there is only one conclusion.

    You dislike Jews. Your denial of this fact makes you the joke that you are.

    Reply
  11. Brian Goldfarb Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Rosso Verde Says:
    “Whatever you think of the boycott the juxtaposition of the Boycotters with the Nazi’s is vile!”
    Why, given that the translation offered by Raphael of just a small part of the soundtrack is: “All those who support Israel, watch what is coming for you”, “they kill babies and then they want to sell wipes for babies”, and, finally, “Here you go, it’s empty now. We don’t want these products in our place. It’s our place here, not Israel. We are in our country here, this is France”, then the juxtaposition seems quite reasonable.

    If not, red/green, why not? In detail, please, not just the assertion offered above, with no argument attached.

    Then spirit level (I’m making sure that you are on the straight and narrow – ho, ho, very funny) offers us this “Let us be quite clear, Israel is a terrorist state. It has inflicted cruelty without mercy upon the noble Palestinian people. Israel is built upon racism, genocide & ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. Israel steals land & resources from the indigenous Palestinians. USA & UK and EU need to understand that the ordinary people will not tolerate this wicked facist barbarity. Unite for the palestinian cause all those of morals and conscience!! Viva Palestine!!!”

    The difficulty is knowing where to begin with this arrant nonsense. One, Israel is not a terrorist state; it was willed into existence by the UN, was forced to fight to avoid annihilation from the very beginning and has been so forced ever since. Whether it _should_ have been so willed is another matter, and one clearly not up for debate at this stage. As a sovereign state, under international law it has every right to defend both itself, both and its citizens. This is not to excuse every action carried out to this end. But again, that is a different matter and not one spirit level is concerned with.

    Second, as to inflicting “cruelty without mercy on the noble Palestinian people”, this, as a statement, beggars belief. Spirit level clearly has no sense of history or of facts that conflict with their view: what of the Hebron massacre of 1927? what of all the other pre-1947/48 atrocities committed on the Jews of the Yishuv? Or don’t these count, because, after all, these were acts committed by the “noble Palestinians” on the presumably totally deserving Jews.

    As for Israel being built on “racism, genocide & ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people”, then he/she plainly has no concept of what these words actually mean. If Israel has used genocide on the Palestinians, how come there are _more_ of them since 1948 – significantly more in statistical terms – whereas the world Jewish population has still not returned to its pre-1939 figure. As for ethnic cleansing, what of the 750,000+ Jews “cleansed” from Moslem lands?

    Spirit level has no understanding of the terms used – go away and use an approriate dictionary/encyclopaedia – and throw these terms around in the hope that some genie will arise and paralyse us with fright. I also wonder how he/she knows that “the ordinary people will not tolerate this wicked facist barbarity”, without any evidence to back up such a ludicrous claim, let alone a clear failure to understand the meaning of the words “fascism” and “fascist”.

    I think they should go and post this garbage on the PSC and/or SWP website, where it will no doubt be fawned over as an example of superior intellectual thought.

    Reply
  12. Siggy Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    “All those who support Israel, watch what is coming for you”
    “Here you go, it’s empty now. We don’t want these products in our place. It’s our place here, not Israel. We are in our country here, this is France”
    “they kill babies and then they want to sell wipes for babies”

    Not much there that a (neo-)nazi would not disagree with…..

    Threat to French Jews
    France needs to be cleansed of the Jews
    blood-libel.

    It seems that you need to keep hold of your critical faculties rather than anti-Israel protrest right or wrong.

    Reply
  13. Siggy Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Other reasons to boycott Israel………………..

    (These can be found on quite a few websites claiming to be “Asian”, “Arab” and “Islamic”)

    “Swine flu is a Jewish plot

    Zionists Have A Long History Of Poisoning Wells”

    AND

    “Well of COURSE “SWINE” flu is the “big one” for the “goyim swine” of the world via the NWO Zionist Jews of the world.”

    AND

    “This new flu is a lab created advanced biological warfare DNA genetically engineered virus that either: (1) Escaped accidentally from a lab; or (2) was deliberately released by a nation or non-state organization or a well-trained individual.

    If there is a positive side to this coming global disaster, it may force governments to quickly come to grips with containing advanced biowar attacks. This is of considerable short term importance as Israel is apt to attack Iran by no later than mid-July 2009. The Iranians, having hired a large number of key ex-Soviet advanced biowar scientists 18 years ago and having spent billions on their asymmetrical MAD (mutually assured destruction) counter-force, are expected to respond to any significant attack on Iran with a biowar attack on Israel, North America, and Europe using in-place agents and dozens of genetically engineered viruses, many with very high projected kill rates.

    This event is an advanced biological warfare event. It is far more important than 9/11 and, by itself, could bring deaths in such magnitudes as to exceed the number of deaths from all causes in the Second World War.”

    Reply
  14. Siggy Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    “Maybe you should also be angry at Gulf Arabs at their treatment of their (majority) Indian and Filipino workers.”

    Not to mention Palestinian workers.

    Reply
  15. jacob Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    “Let us be quite clear, Israel is a terrorist state. It has inflicted cruelty without mercy upon the noble Palestinian people.” spirit level

    Spiritlevel should read this:

    “Some residents of Gaza were taken from their homes and shot in the legs or feet. Some were brutally beaten, and some were simply murdered, sometimes after hideous torture. If you are expecting — based on everything that has happened — that the awful Israelis did this, guess again. It was Hamas, the authentic and genuine government of Gaza. Well, no one’s perfect.

    The information about the shootings is taken from a report issued yesterday by Human Rights Watch. It says that “Hamas security forces or masked gunmen believed to be with Hamas” executed 18 people, most of whom were accused of collaborating with Israel, sparing the expense and bother of a trial. Others were shot, maimed or beaten, not for allegedly collaborating with the enemy — or, as is often the case, having a house or woman that a snitch covets — but for belonging to the opposition political party, Fatah. ”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/20/AR2009042002815_pf.html

    I doubt he will, though. It would damage his idealistic view of the “noble” Palestinian poeple.

    Here is what Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people:

    “Israel’s medical support programmes to Palestinian society

    Here are the facts: Israel was responsible for the welfare of the Palestinians during these years, 1967 – 1994, until the Palestinian Authority took over. During that period, Israel has presented annually dramatic documented achievements to the World Health Organisation (WHO) either by myself, as head of the Israeli delegation, or by the other Israeli officials of the Ministry of Health. This included the total eradication in the Palestinian population of poliomyelitis, neonatal-tetanus and measles. Also, Israel dramatically reduced the death rate of Palestinian newborns from over 60/1000 to 19/1000 within those 27 years of Israel’s presence.”

    You can read it here:

    http://www.beyondimages.info/b110.html

    Even the BBC has noticed that Israel offered medical treatment to Palestinians:

    “Israel’s dilemma over sick Gazans”

    By Raffi Berg
    BBC News, Ashkelon, southern Israel

    “Crying out in pain, Ahmed lies in a hospital bed in Barzilai Medical Centre, his blood-encrusted lower limbs heavily bandaged.

    Two weeks earlier, the 17-year-old became another victim of the violence between Israeli forces and Palestinian militants when he lost his left leg, he says, in an Israeli missile strike against militants in Bureij refugee camp in the Gaza Strip.

    At first, he was taken to Gaza’s Shifa hospital, but with the territory’s health system under severe strain after months of Israeli blockade and internal strife, his only hope for life-saving treatment lay in Israel itself.

    “We got our permit from the Israeli authorities within 24 hours,” said Ahmed’s father, Muhammad.

    “An ambulance took my son from Shifa to the Erez crossing, where he was transferred to an Israeli ambulance and brought to Barzilai. I used to work in Israel so I wasn’t afraid, but for him it is his first time,” he said.

    Since his arrival at the medical centre in Ashkelon, Ahmed has undergone three operations and he is awaiting a fourth.

    ‘No distinction’

    While some 1,600 Gazan patients had permit requests denied by Israel in 2007, more than 7,000 were allowed in for medical treatment – a 50% increase on 2006 – according to the World Health Organization (WHO).

    MEDICAL PERMITS FROM GAZA

    2006: 4932 granted; 538 denied
    2007: 7176 granted; 1627 denied Source: WHO
    However, WHO says the proportion of permits denied also increased, from 10% in 2006 to 18.5% in 2007.
    Under the 1994 Israeli-Palestinian peace accords, the Palestinian Authority assumed responsibility for health services in the West Bank and Gaza.

    However, with tertiary care virtually non-existent in Gaza, Palestinians there are forced to seek such treatment in Israel or beyond.

    Barzilai is one of three hospitals in Israel to which most of the cases come, but its proximity to Gaza – just 12km (seven miles) – means it gets those which are most severe.

    “We treat hundreds of Gazans here each year,” says Dr Ron Lobel, Barzilai’s deputy director.

    He says there are some five to 15 Gazan patients there at any given time.

    “Most are extremely ill, a lot have bullet wounds, but we also treat Palestinians with cancer, kidney and liver diseases who can’t get treatment in Gaza.”

    He says doctors never ask patients how they got their injuries or if they belong to a militant group.

    “Even if they’re terrorists they’re treated like any other person being brought into the emergency room – we make no distinction between treating Israelis or Palestinians.”

    Most treatment is funded by the Palestinian Authority’s health department, although many cases are treated by Israel for free.

    Ironically, Barzilai’s closeness to Gaza also means the hospital is within range of militants’ rockets.

    “It’s absurd,” says Dr Lobel. “We’re treating Gazans while coming under fire from their own back yards.” ….”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7375439.stm

    Who are the barbarians, “spitirlevel” the Israelis who treat the sick Palestinians or the Palestinian terrorist who fire rockets at the hospital in Israel treating them?

    I think you know the answer, I am also sure you are incapable of admitting the truth even to yourself. It might damage your view of the “noble Palestinian” under attack by a “terrorist State.”

    Reply
    • Ryan Says:
      April 28, 2009 at 3:11 pm

      I guess its kind of like in a prison right! Prisoners get treated aswell – they get permision to leave their cells and are escorted to the hospital – once they are better they get thrown back in there cell. Is it noble of the prison gaurds to do this – should they let them rot?

      Does this not strike some resemblence to Gaza and the noble Israelis? Maybe not – Prisons are much better organised and bombs are not normally dropped on the inmates.

      Reply
  16. seismicshock Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Beware les pamplemousses sionistes!

    Reply
  17. Ryan Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    Its actually bizzare how after so much campaigning from the likes of David and others on this site about the so called vile exagerated Juxtoposition used by Anti-Warcampaigners that a post such as this is put on the site – it is hypocritical to say the least.

    I think there is a major problem here where everyone is addressing boycotters as if they all have the same intentions – The result of which (that lovely formula again) is that those with legitimate grievances (the majority I believe) are wrapped up in your convenient Anti Semite blanket.

    Just out of interest from all of you purporting to be completely unbiased in your writing – siggy etc: can any of you point me to some examples of your writing that concerns rasism but not Anti Semitism? It would be nice to see that you are practicing what you preach.

    Have any of you written anything about the ultra rascist Politicians that have just come into office in Israel? Do any of you care?

    Anyone by any chance written about Leiberman?

    The child beating racist who commented that Israel should fight in Gaza like the Americans fought the Japanese in the second world war. Proposed citizenship tests, told the Egyptian PM to go to hell, used to be part of a terrorist organisation himself, openly fantasised about killing three arab Israeli politicans and said that all Arab Israelis should be kicked out (I wonder where they would have gone)?

    That Netanyahu doesnt even believe in a two state solution??? All of you please – tell me – If he doesnt believe in a two state solution what does he believe in??

    It may help to prove your livingstone Formula theory and show that you are not just concerned about defending Israel no matter what “Mistakes” are made or International Laws are broken.

    Reply
    • modernityblog Says:
      April 28, 2009 at 6:10 pm

      Ryan,

      you asked so many questions before in other threads, seemingly none of them genuine, and again you act in bad faith, the racism in this clip has be detailed by raphael:

      “(3:02)

      “tous ceux qui soutiennent Israel, regardez ce qui vous attend” – while dumping Loreal products… –

      “voila, c’est vide maintenant. On ne veut plus de ces produits chez nous. On est chez nous ici, pas en Israel, on est chez nous, c’est la France.”

      “All those who support Israel, watch what is coming for you”
      “Here you go, it’s empty now. We don’t want these products in our place. It’s our place here, not Israel. We are in our country here, this is France”

      3min47

      “Ils tuent des bebes et apres ils veulent vendre des lingettes pour bebe”

      “they kill babies and then they want to sell wipes for babies”

      really disgusting stuff…”

      Ryan, can’t you see it, or is racism against Jews unimportant to you?

      well? can you see nothing wrong with those words?

      Reply
      • Ryan Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 11:29 am

        Good Faith, Bad Faith – what are you talking about??

        I did read the translated sentences but it doesnt refer to the word Jew anywhere – Now I understand that you believe this is modern Anti Semitism where people relpace the word Jew with Israeli but it is possible that someone can say all these things and not be reffering to Jews.

        If it was Italian products and Italy that they were reffering to no one would be saying they have a problem with Catholics – If it was America and its products – who would they be reffering to then?

        I understand that it is more complicated than that because of the history of Israel and Jews but im not yet convinced that it equates to Anti Semitism. If I heard them reffering to Jews I would agree with you completely.

        Reply
    • Inna Says:
      April 30, 2009 at 7:53 am

      Ryan–

      Something to keep in mind: Anti-Semitism IS racism.

      If you are an anti-Semite, you are a racist. By definition.

      Regards,

      Inna

      Reply
  18. jacob Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    Ryan “I guess its kind of like in a prison right! Prisoners get treated aswell – they get permision to leave their cells and are escorted to the hospital – once they are better they get thrown back in there cell. Is it noble of the prison gaurds to do this – should they let them rot? “Does this not strike some resemblence to Gaza and the noble Israelis? Maybe not – Prisons are much better organised and bombs are not normally dropped on the inmates.”

    You are really reaching, Ryan.

    Gaza has a border with Egypt and the Gazans are free to leave the territory. The border with Israel is shut because the Gazans have been mounting attacks on the border and launching rockets at Israel.

    Show me one prison in the world were the “inmates” have access to rockets and are armed to their teeth?

    I don’t believe it is ignorance on your part which leads you to make such outlandish and false comments.

    Reply
    • Ryan Says:
      April 28, 2009 at 3:43 pm

      Sorry Jacob – your saying Gazans are free to leave their territory??

      Reply
      • Inna Says:
        April 30, 2009 at 7:54 am

        Well, Israel has semi-open borders with Gaza; Egypt shut theirs. Something about lots of terrorist attacks–I guess the Egyptians are concerned for their security.

        Quite understandable–in the case of Egypt anyway, right?

        Regards,

        Inna

        Reply
  19. Duncan Bryson Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    Ryan,

    I think Lieberman and his views are as odious and as big an obstacle to peace as any held by Hamas or any anti semitic ‘critic’ of Israel. He is a racist and should be condemned. Are you willing to separate yourself from the racist and murderous people with whom many in the Palestine Solidarity movement express solidarity?

    I don’t think the juxtaposition in the above article is helpful; there are parallels, but considering how offensive the use of nazi analogies are, I think it’s inflammatory.

    Reply
  20. Ryan Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    we should have both posted these last comments inline withyour first – it would beeasier for people to understand…

    Reply
  21. jacob Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    Ryan: “Have any of you written anything about the ultra rascist Politicians that have just come into office in Israel? Do any of you care? Anyone by any chance written about Leiberman?”

    Lots of posters here have attacked Lieberman. I have attacked him as a thug as well as a racist.

    Lot’s of Israeli politicians as well as media people have attacked Lieberman.

    Lieberman is under investigation by the Israeli police for corruption and may be indicted at any time.

    Now, how many Palestinians have attacked the racist antisemitic Hamas party and their Nazi like charter? How many pro Palestinian activists have attacked Palestinian antisemitism?

    “That Netanyahu doesnt even believe in a two state solution???”

    The Israeli government’s policy is the support of a two State solution. Netanyahu hasn’t changed that.
    He wants to change the way negotiations have been conducted. He wants the PA to recognize Israel as a Jewish State.

    Agree or not, this is a far cry from saying that he doesn’t believe in a two State solution.

    Reply
    • David Hirsh Says:
      April 28, 2009 at 4:09 pm

      Most Palestinians have attacked the racist antisemitic Hamas – that is why they had to take power in Gaza via a coup against the Palestinian Authority.

      Reply
      • fred Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 10:12 am

        where’s the evidence that “most Palestinians” oppose Hamas? as for that coup:

        http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804
        Wurmser accuses the Bush administration of “engaging in a dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship [led by Abbas] with victory.” He believes that Hamas had no intention of taking Gaza until Fatah forced its hand. “It looks to me that what happened wasn’t so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen,” Wurmser says.

        Reply
  22. zkharya Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    “It has inflicted cruelty without mercy upon the noble Palestinian people.”

    i.e. the Israeli Jew has crucified the Palestinian Christian and Muslim Christ.

    Old Wine, New Bottles.

    Plus ca change…

    Reply
  23. Ryan Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    The inline comment was for Jacob…

    I agree Hamas is a terrorist organisation but I still am critical of the way Israel has defended itself and think its absoltuley disproportionate and is detrimental to the security of Israel and the rest of the world. I am critical of settlement expansion, the blockade of Gaza, the rasiscm experienced by Arab Israelis, the attack on beirut – many reasons.

    I dont think Hamas’s brutality justifies Israels actions as some seem to convey.

    What do you think of Leiberman Jacob? Are you worried?

    Reply
  24. Eamonn Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    Wait a minute. There is not a word about boycotting Jews. Many Jews back the boycott. Those tee shirts say “Boycott Israel”. Israel is a country, not a race.
    After Gaza I too back the Boycott of Israel, after all boycott is a peaceful way of registering protest. I am also boycotting the Mugabe regime, and I have recently persuaded some friends not to take a holiday in Burma.
    I think the allegations of anti-semitism are the last gasp of those who can find no other way of defending the indefensible.

    Reply
    • Dan S Says:
      April 30, 2009 at 10:19 pm

      Why is it only the jews that are ever accused of using ‘allegations of’ racism against them to hide a sinister agenda?

      Could it not be that jews call anti-semitism when they’re WORRIED ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM? If you’d said something and pakistanis were offended by what you said and suggested that you might be makin racist/upsetting/discriminatory statements, would you throw it back in their face and tell them that they’re sinister liars?! Of course you wouldn’t but as ever, jews are held to higher standards.

      When was the last time you heard ANYBODY say that black people ‘USE’ anti-black racism as a way to deflect criticism about gun crime (to use a pathetically crude example)?! YOU DON’T! Why not?

      Reply
  25. Siggy Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    And not a word about antisemitism from Ryan………

    And stop changing the subject……..”What do you think of Leiberman Jacob? Are you worried?”

    You have evidence of organised green shirts marching into a store repeating antisemitic libels and threatening Jews. Not a word from Ryan who wants to deflect ttention from the antisemitism infecting the case and cause for Palestine.

    The post here is about antisemitism in the boycott campaign. I have my views on Lieberman as on many other things. They are not relevant to the post here.

    One wonders why whenever antisemitism is mentioned Ryan wants to talk about Israel. A using deflecting tactic of those willing to turn a blind eye to antisemitism.

    If you want to post on Leiberman, maybe Hirsh is the person to approach.

    Reply
    • Ryan Says:
      April 29, 2009 at 11:12 am

      They are relevant Siggy – Leiberman and Co are big concerns for everyone and specifically Boycotters. Knowing your view on such politicians allows me and others to form a judgement of your character and political view – it helps me work out where you stand – just as the many questions that you throw at me helps you understand my opinion.

      Look further down for a longer explanation

      Reply
      • David Hirsh Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 11:39 am

        I don’t think antizionists have the conceptual tools to understand the threat of the Lieberman right.

        If you think that Israel is an apartheid state, then what’s the big deal? There’s a guy who says that Arabs are disloyal and shouldn’t be citizens. But that is already the case in an apartheid state.

        If you think Israel is an apartheid state then why would it bother you if Arab towns were to be incorporated into a future Palestinian state rather than into Israel? What could be worse for an Arab than living in Israel?

        But of course all of this is trash. Israel is not an apartheid state, it is a state in which Christian and Muslim Arab miniorities, while they do face significant racism, both official and personal, are not excluded from the professions, are able to build decent lives, have the freedom to speak and to engage politically, have equality before the law, are able to own businesses, are able to be successful, have the freedom to be lesbian, gay, feminist, secular.

        It is the fact that Israel is not an apartheid state, but is more like a liberal democracy, that makes Lieberman’s threat to Arab citizens of Israel so frightening.

        Lieberman’s racist project threatens the equality of Arabs in Israel must be defeated.

        I don’t think Arabs are absolutely equal in Israel and i think they should be – i fight for that – notwithstanding the complexity of reconciling this fight with a fight for the existence of Israel as a means by which Jews in the Middle East can defend themselves.

        I am talking, to be clear, about Arab citizens of Israel. What happens in the Occupied Territories is different and I think that Israelis who live there should go home to Israel unless they are happy to live as loyal Palestinian citizens under Palestinian law; and I think the Israeli government should make every effort to negotiate an end to the occupation on the basis of a two state solution.

        Reply
        • Ryan Says:
          April 29, 2009 at 2:11 pm

          Now that he is foreign minister we can only hope that international pressure will curb his extremism – Its scary having Netanyahu leading and such a rascist in charge of foreign affairs – especially with the whole Nuclear Iran issue and other problems in the region.

        • Brian Goldfarb Says:
          April 29, 2009 at 4:08 pm

          You didn’t read a word of what David H. wrote did you, Ryan. You’re transparent, Ryan, and all you keep doing is raising your old assertions again and again, refusing to offer any evidence, let alone argument, and when confronted with something that demands a rational response, you change the subject.

        • Ryan Stokes Says:
          April 30, 2009 at 6:38 pm

          Sorry for not replying sooner.

          I wasn’t changing the subject – I found what David said very interesting and I agree with most of what he said apart from the conceptual tools part. His post didn’t really ask me anything and was more of an explanation of his views – there are many questions – but they are rhetorical you will notice Brian.

          The links to the articles further down are very extreme and I agree they are not nice at all.

        • Bill Says:
          April 30, 2009 at 9:25 pm

          “The links to the articles further down are very extreme and I agree they are not nice at all.”

          Well what you want to start asking is what sort of environment “normalizes” that sort of thing. We’re not just talking about Siggy’s stuff or Stormfront or Vox of Aztlan.

          You can bet money the you’d never see even members of ZanuPF portrayed wearing sheets, a la the KKK, at a university art expo… but nazifying Jews? That’s different. A an official working climate says that “Criticism of Israel is not ‘as such’ antisemetic” and sho’ nuff, someone eventually cites David Duke with little-to-no thought. The case w/ Birmingham’s ex-mayor, once again, had no mention of Israel but once again, you can bet and win at least a beer to know that someone’s going to rationalize Israel into the formula. In these and other cases, we’ve found certified smart people who will climb walls to prove that there was no anti-Jew bias in it despite the leveraged Jewish stereotypes or raw buck-nekkid antisemitism.

          There’s a lot of “not nice at all” going on. And a lot of people not wanting to know the real reasons why. And as it piles up, it gets harder and harder to honestly pin it all on Israel (Ken Livingstone’s stunt was the perfect example). But it it does get easier to see why people are getting away with it: No one wants to mention the presence of antisemitism among such otherwise “smart” people, at the surface or deeply internalized. And as a result, it takes root and thrives, and when you can’t deny it anymore, it’s given a perverse moral veneer.

        • Waterloo Sunset Says:
          April 30, 2009 at 4:59 pm

          It causes problems for more than just the antizionists.

          To be clear, I start from the position that Lieberman’s far right populism is, to all intents and purposes, a strand of neofascism. Specifically, his nearest parallel here would seem to be Nick Griffin, an undoubted fascist who has moderated his public tone over the years in order to gain support. Obviously, you can disagree with that analysis of Lieberman’s political ideology. But it’s certainly my view.

          On the antizionists, they don’t have the conceptual tools for the reason you outline. As you point out, if Israel is already a racist and fascist apartheid state, then Lieberman would be part of that. Whereas he isn’t, most of Israel’s political parties are actually very standard compared to most liberal democracies. Lieberman’s fascism is an issue because he falls outside the normal political discourse in Israel.

          Something I think you miss is the other main problem this poses for antizionists. They have been making, consistently, the argument that Hamas need to be recognised as the legitimate voice of the Palestinian people, regardless of their politics, because they’ve been “democratically elected”.

          That’s quite obviously equally the case with Lieberman. Logically therefore, if you’re going to take that position on Hamas, you also need to take it with him.

          That’s an interesting omission I think. It brings up the problem with your conceptual tools. As a liberal, you simply don’t have the methodology to deal with that. Because to do so would require a clear ideological break with bourgeoise democracy, which I’d guess you’re not prepared to do.

          The other main issue, much like the previous one, is also in some ways a mirror image of the problem Lieberman poses for antizionists.

          One major argument (and I think its a strong one) against in any way recognising Hamas as a legitimate force is their political program. Again, a very strong argument can be made for seeing Hamas as a neofascist movement.

          You can argue, if you’re so inclined, that they’re “worse” neofascists. But that to me is much like arguing that the National Front are more extreme than the BNP. Probably true. But missing the point rather.

          Which leaves you with a serious problem, even within the confines of liberalism. Can any government containing a fascist be considered legitimate? If so, then it is valid to describe you as being “objectively pro-fascist”. If not, surely liberal democracies should currently be refusing to recognise either Hamas or the current Israeli government as legitimate actors in the region.

          All that said, this isn’t really Engage’s problem as such. You’re a single issue campaign set up to fight antisemitism, in particular on the left. As such, you’re non-fascist, not an antifascist campaign. As such, this is outside your remit and is probably best tackled by antifascists.

          Preferably within Israel- antifascism is always both a defensive and a local movement first and foremost. That’s difficult. At the moment Israel doesn’t have much of an active homegrown militant antifascist movement. Hopefully Israeli antifascists will rectify this.

  26. Siggy Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    “I don’t think the juxtaposition in the above article is helpful; there are parallels, but considering how offensive the use of nazi analogies are, I think it’s inflammatory.”

    Well, if those in the store stopped repeating nazi viewpoints (see above) you may have a point.

    There attack was as much about Jews in France as about Israel. They advocated violence against Jews; they repeated the blood libel, they ranted on about a Jew-free France.

    As it is, there is as much similarity as there are distinctions. The analogy of the green shirts with the brown shirts is perfectly legitimate in this instance.
    I am sorry if your liberal sensibilities are offended, but blame the message not the messenger.

    Reply
    • Ryan Says:
      April 29, 2009 at 11:08 am

      See my comment further down in regards to this.

      did they really say Jew free france? Blood Libel – are you sure?

      I dont know because none of the translated sentences said that – Do you speak French Siggy?

      Reply
      • Brian Goldfarb Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 4:12 pm

        Siggy may not but Raphael does and he translated the following way back at the beginning of this thread (and others have repeated it): “they kill babies and then they want to sell wipes for babies”

        That’s close enough to the blood libel for the sane, Ryan. Your one of the few who would reject it. See my comment immediately above, times at 4.08 pm today.

        Reply
  27. Siggy Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    “I think the allegations of anti-semitism are the last gasp of those who can find no other way of defending the indefensible”

    And what do you think of what was said by the green shirts; you know, the one’s who are boycotting Jews and only Jews (you may want to boycott Burma, Zimbambwe and who knows any other country, but only the Jewish state gains wide support. Coincidence.

    And your comparison between Israel, Burma and Zimbabwe is symptomatic of your inability to understand the current attitudes to Israel. Do you really think that Israel is on a par with these countries. If you do, then do not expect anybody to take your absurd slogans seriously.

    Reply
  28. Siggy Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    “I think the allegations of anti-semitism are the last gasp of those who can find no other way of defending the indefensible.”

    No it is not an allegation – listen to the chants – antisemitism is there for all to see and hear.

    One must ask why you refuse to see it and instead slur those who dare mention what is before your very eyes.

    Reply
  29. jacob Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    Siggy made some excellent points.

    About Eamonn:

    “After Gaza I too back the Boycott of Israel, after all boycott is a peaceful way of registering protest. I am also boycotting the Mugabe regime, and I have recently persuaded some friends not to take a holiday in Burma. I think the allegations of anti-semitism are the last gasp of those who can find no other way of defending the indefensible.”

    Are you also boycotting China, or Russia? If not, why not? What about Saudi Arabia, or Iran?

    I haven’t seen any organized group of thugs marching into a store looking for Russian, Burmese, or say Chinese goods, have you?

    Looking for Israeli made products which Jews among other buy is a way of intimidating and threatening Jews and other supporters of Israel, reread the translation of some of the comments above.

    It is antisemitic because it singles out the Jewish State. The Russian pogromchiks also claimed that they had nothing against Jews, only Judaism and Communists. Yet they killed Jewish people. .

    Reply
  30. Saul Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    When people point out Hamas’ adoption of the Protocols – “anti-racist” say it is not relevant

    When people note the President of Iran’s Holocaust denial and conspiracy theory, “anti-racists” tell us to “ignore it”.

    When people are confronted with the reality of antisemitism in its connetion to the boycott, we are told that we are libelling the boycott campaign with the allegation of antisemitism; and that those people are liars and are defending Israel right or wrong.

    Anti-antisemitism and anti-antisemites have always been told to be quiet because there are “more important things at stake”.

    Here is the deal – silence is not an option, nor is it going to happen.

    Reply
  31. spirit level Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    We are talking about Israel,a colonialist failed state which has terrorised an entire Palestinian population. Even the IDF (some of them) cannot bear the extreme & bestial acts they have commited against the Palestinians and are crippled with guilt.(see web site “Breaking the Silence”) War crimes, crimes against humanity, the execution at close quarters of children & babies by bullet to the head. Charred babies. Not to mention the theft of land, illegal settlements,illegal weapons, the plundering/control of resources.A holocaust has been perpetrated against the NOBLE PALESTINIANS. We know in UK what israel is doing. Jack-booting its way thro Palestine. Where are israel’s borders? Israel is a criminal &morally bereft failed state. it is doomed. The Boycotters are taking commendable peaceful action. Boycott Israeli & illegal West bank goods.

    Reply
  32. zkharya Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    “Wait a minute. There is not a word about boycotting Jews.”

    Just the largest Jewish community in the world. The literal Jew among the nations. Doing no worse, if no better, than any other nation state faced with an equivalent threat from an enemy state, dedicated to her destruction, right on her border.

    Russia did worse in Chechnya. 100s of 1000s of civilians have died as a result of US, UK and NATO actions in Iraq and Afghanistans. And how may Iraqi or Afghani missiles fell on American or European towns or cities?

    The Nazis in the photo only boycotted German Jews.

    It is clear from their reported language that those particular boycotters have a problem, not just with Gaza, but with Zionism and the Jewish state of Israel generally. Certainly the organizers of the boycott in this country.

    In the Jewish state, the Jew of the nation states, all the world’s problems become encapsulated, it is seen as, somehow, a root cause, the principal evil in the world.

    As I said, Old Wine, New Bottles.

    Reply
  33. spirit level Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    Essential reading the UN Report on the Gaza massacre. Amnesty international’s Report on same. Jimmy Carter’s report on Peace & Health in the occupied Palestinian Territory. the series of articles in the Lancet. The call for Israel to be Prosecuted for War Crimes in Gaza by Norweigian Lawyers. Easily accessed info on the numbers of Palestinian children imprisoned & tortured in Israeli prisons. Of course many Jews oppose aggressive zionism. But this IS happening. To hide behind the anti-semite chestnut does not cut it. However you look at it, Israel is wicked,immoral and has no regard for Palesinian people or Internation Law and Conventions

    Reply
    • Brian Goldfarb Says:
      April 28, 2009 at 8:31 pm

      EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, spirit level, not a repitition of the garbage you spewed forth before on this thread. I quite specifically made certain points, which you have ignored. Further, you have repeated certain of these lies – do you really expect people to believe this nonsense, when you produce no evidence, let alone an argument to make sense of this evidence?

      As for your alleged citations (without detailed references – too easy to check them out?), Carter has been comprehensively criticised and refuted in these columns before, the UN has acknowledged that at least some of its reports on the results of Operation Cast Lead were inaccurate and/or one-sided (but that doesn’t suit your case does it? You might have to alter your stance, were you to acknowledge _that_).

      As for the Lancet, that’s about as unbiased as Tom Hickey in the British Medical Journal on this topic (see references supra, too umerous to mention – but I will if you insist).

      I notice that you mention only the call for _Israel_ to be prosecuted, but ignore all the calls for Hamas to be brought to book for _its_ war crimes – or is that okay, because, after all, they’re “noble Palestinians”, and therefore can’t, by definition, commit war crimes?

      Is it “Easily accessed info on the numbers of Palestinian children imprisoned & tortured in Israeli prisons”? If it’s so easy, why don’t you provide the link for us? Perhaps because it doesn’t exist, and you just expect us to fall over and believe your pack of unsupported assertions. Goebbels called it the “big lie” – say it often enough and people will believe you. Not here they won’t.

      Nothing you say here or in your earlier intervention has _ANY_ evidence to support it. So, to put it crudely, spirit level, put up or shut up.

      Or post it on an SWP or PSC website where they’re ready to believe such egregious nonsense. But don’t post such crap here.

      Reply
  34. zkharya Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    “All those who support Israel, watch what is coming for you” …“Here you go, it’s empty now. We don’t want these products in our place. It’s our place here, not Israel. We are in our country here, this is France”

    This is the language of conspiracy theory, the language of paranoia and its attendant unreasoning hatred, the language of psychopathology.

    As is this:

    “Let us be quite clear, Israel is a terrorist state. It has inflicted cruelty without mercy upon the noble Palestinian people.”

    This is the Jewish state as crucifier of the Palestinian Christ.

    It is “peaceful” only insofar as Israeli Jews are not themselves present. Freud would have a field day analysing boycotters’ aggression, physical and verbal, inflicted on Israeli Jewish goods instead of Israeli Jews.

    All those Israeli Jews who are not present, in European or Arab Christendom or Islam because of the same impulse originally directed directly at themselves or their ancestors.

    It is, as Howard Jacobson wrote, symptomatic of the pox.

    Reply
  35. jacob Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    spirit level “We are talking about Israel,a colonialist failed state which has terrorised an entire Palestinian population.”

    David why do you allow such malicious hateful nonsense to be posted here?

    Would you allow a poster that called Palestinians terrorists to post comments here?

    What does this kind of vituperation add to the discussion?

    People know quite well that antisemites like spiritlevel are out there. Do they need to be in here?

    Reply
  36. Ryan Stokes Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    Sorry for taking so long to reply – I just got back from work.

    i dont have much time but because im going out

    I think it would be helpful if we had a translation of everything said as the couple of sentences don’t really tell me enough to sum up the groups position and indicate to me weather they are anti Semitic or not. We really need more to understand this properly – I hope whoever posted it or someone on engage does speak french or has read a full translation – I presume you have.

    Ill reply to all of your points later.

    Spirit Level – tone down a bit and make your points more logically – your ranting – it wont get you very far apart from reaffirming those on here’s belief that critics of Israel are misinformed and are antisemitic – try to address peoples points and convince them of what you think.

    back later

    Reply
    • Brian Goldfarb Says:
      April 28, 2009 at 8:36 pm

      Christ, Ryan needs a gold-plated invitation to understand antisemitism when it sits up and slaps him round the face with a wet fish.

      Don’t be so faux naive, Ryan. Evidence and argument, not assertion, were demanded of you last time you poked your nose in here, and your still at it. How much more do you need? Clearly, you need more than the law would need to bring a case: good thing _you’re_ not in the CPS deciding on these things.

      Reply
      • Ryan Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 10:34 am

        Sorry I have annnoyed you Brian – I didnt intend to.

        The problem I have with this post is that I and most of the others commenting on it dont Know what has been said apart from the couple of sentences that have been translated which could be taken to mean different things depending on the context (Im sure many on the site will passionately disagree with me here).

        I also think its an exaggeration to juxtapose these protestors with Nazi Soldiers – it seems all to easy for people to use evocative language and photos from the past to suggest that this is somehow a first step towards Jews being sent to death camps – that this is how it all started back then and its going to somehow repeat itself.

        It seems to me that there is no distinction in many peoples eyes between Israel and Jew and anything said in relation to Israel is distorted because of this view.

        None of the translated statements gives concrete evidence that they are reffering to Jews – but everyone has decided to understand it that way. It may be that they are refferring to Jews but there is not any text that shows me or anyone else that. It may be wrong what they are doing but its not automatically AntiSemitic as most like to presume.

        Reply
    • Jonathan Romer Says:
      April 29, 2009 at 1:52 am

      Ryan,

      Spirit Level is that well known thing, a troll on the internet. “Toning it down”, reasoned argument and logical points are not his thing. He’s here to unburden himself of hate and, if possible, tie the thread in knots.

      If that was not already obvious to you before I said it, perhaps you share more of his venom against Israel than is good for your mental health.

      Reply
      • Ryan Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 10:44 am

        Spirit Level doesnt represent me Jonathan.

        Would it not be better to get him to “Engage” (Excuse the pun) than to insult him and send him on his way – neither persons views are effected this way.

        Nothing is obvious to me straight away, which is why i told him tone down so that we can have a proper discussion – after which everyone can start deciding what he stands for – he may be a 14 year old for all you know, maybe he has a palestinian friend who died in Gaza – none of you know anything about him yet.

        Rather than insulting him try talking to him and pointing out why you think hes wrong without resorting to witty arogant statements.

        Reply
  37. spirit level Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 9:33 pm

    Many of us have visited Gaza & the West Bank and every time have witnessed Israeli atrocities against the Palestinian people. Palestinians who are defending themselves against Israeli theft, occupation& massacre are NOT terrorists. Hamas was democratically elected by a poll of the people under the supervision of the EU.
    To criticise Israeli/Zionist extreme violence & racism does not warrant the attachment of the label “anti-semitic”. The terms “anti-semitc “& “holocaust” are used by people who cannot bear to confront the truth& its attendant feelings of shame and guilt. Critics of israel cannot be silenced by the continued and mindless use against them of the worn out anti-semite label.

    Reply
    • Brian Goldfarb Says:
      April 29, 2009 at 10:11 am

      Except that the troll spirit level doesn’t merely “criticise” what it calls “Israeli/Zionist extreme violence and racism”, it goes much further. The very first words on its very first intervention on this thread were “Let us be quite clear, Israel is a terrorist state. It has inflicted cruelty without mercy upon the noble Palestinian people.” This is demonisation of the first order. The whole society is condemned by this vicious little creep, who expects us to take anything it says seriously. It is antisemitic claptrap and should be labelled as such.

      While not in favour of censorship, moderators/editors of any published material (and these comments threads count as “published”) are entitled to determine who appears here. I strongly suggest that spirit level has worn out its welcome and should be shown the door.

      Its contributions are a series of venomous, antisemitic assertions, which serve only to demonise Israel and only Israel. It may well have observed what it chooses to call “atrocities” on the West Bank and in Gaza, but does it attempt to contextualise these? Of course not, that would demand thought – which is what those such as David Hare in “Wall” actually does.

      Actually, one last point, the term “holocaust” and “genocide” are used by those who don’t know the meaning of these words. And who never respond to demands for evidence and argument, but merely repeat their unrooted assertions, over and over….

      So, to paraphrase Saul’s pithy phrase (because I don’t like to use obscenities in writing, even when they actually apply), bugger off, spirit level, back to the deep hole from whence you came and go and play with your antisemitic friends, preferably in the fast lane of the M1.

      Reply
      • Ryan Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 11:34 am

        Dont be so rude Brian

        Reply
        • Brian Goldfarb Says:
          April 29, 2009 at 12:25 pm

          Who asked you your opinion, Ryan? And what I’ve said above is not rude, but merely a response to spirit level’s racism and antisemitism. If you can’t see that, then that tars you with the same brush.

          Stop being so smugly brief, and actually respond to the comments directed at you, instead of seeking to deflect the criticism by appearing to “defend” the troll.

          Furthermore, your comments as of 11.34 this am are no more a reply to my comment to which they are attached than is your miserable mini-sentence immediately above this one.

          As always, how about some evidence from you, instead of more assertion? If you have a problem with this post because you don’t know what was said, why, you’re just as capable as anyone else here of getting out a French-English dictionary, recording the words and then setting about translating them. [I managed to book a hotel room, in writing, in France, with just my ‘O’ Level French and a decent dictionary – you’re suggesting that you’re less capable than me. Probably true, but a strange admission coming from one so self-satisfied and self-opiniated.]

          Raphael has translated sufficient of the words to convince me that the demonstrators are not only committing a criminal offence, if they failed to pay for the goods they took from the shelves (as did the Tesco whatever number of people it was), but also spouting antisemitic words and demonising Israel.

          You, however, prefer to stick with your normal method of repeated assertion, faux naivety, and pretence that you can’t recognise antisemitism and demonisation of Israel when it taps you on the shoulder and says “Hi, Ryan, I’m antisemitism, pleased to meet a believer of mine.”

          So you can bugger off, too. You probably wonder what the problem with Tom Hickey’s phraseology in the British Medical Journal Online edition of 27 July 2007 is, don’t you (go and look it up for yourself)?

        • Ryan Says:
          April 29, 2009 at 1:31 pm

          Im lost for words

          Have you read all of the replies I wrote today?

          I think telling people to bugger off and calling them snide gits does amount to being rude. If you took the time to read all of the replies you will see that I have answered peoples questions (and im still in the process of doing so) – and I havn’t been rude or used an aggressive tone – unlike you.

          All of this GCSE, finished highschool, slaps you round the face with a fish, talk is immature and doesnt achieve anything but show that you are not willing to have a constructive conversation.

          The French dictionary comments are even more immature and are not going to invoke retaliation on my part. As much as I would like to try – I dont think, speaking no french, that I could accurately translate the video.

          If you are willing to judge a video by 3 or 4 sentences that are said (none of which says blood libel or Jew) as being enough eveidence to tarnish the group as Jew haters then go ahead. If you are unhappy that I prefer to reserve my judgement to when I see everything that was said then .. not sure what to say – Im sorry if it offends you so much.

          What evidence are you talking about by the way? Suggest where i can provide evidence and I will do.

          Please calm down Brian – I dont have a problem with you (im sure you will say you have with me!)

        • Brian Goldfarb Says:
          April 29, 2009 at 4:18 pm

          Yes I have your comments today, and mine timed at 4.08 today says all I need to say. You keep getting responded to and yet you refuse to respond, you merely repeat your earlier assertions, or you add new ones. And your comment to Bill was exactly that of a snide git. Nothing you say above gives me any reason to change my mind as to your politics or your underlying intellectual abilities.

          And I do have serious problems with you, the major one of which is contained in the 3rd, 4th and 5th lines of this comment.

        • Brian Goldfarb Says:
          April 29, 2009 at 10:57 pm

          Ryan says in the comment above my reply: “What evidence are you talking about by the way? Suggest where i can provide evidence and I will do.” In case you hadn’t noticed, I’m not the one making assertions about Israel, boycotts, etc and so forth, you are.

          It’s not for me to suggest to you where you should look for evidence to support _your_ assertions. You want us to change our minds, therefore it’s up to you to provide the evidence to do so. If you don’t where it is, then stop making the assertions and go away. Stop being what Bill referred to (in a different context, but the phrase applies) as being “too smart to study, too stupid to learn”.

  38. Susan Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 9:50 pm

    Jimmy Carter is hardly objective, and neither is Lancet. You are not going to convince me by quoting from either source. The others posting here are doing such a good job of responding that I don’t think that I need to respond to the rest right now.

    Reply
  39. Bill Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    “David why do you allow such malicious hateful nonsense to be posted here?”

    “People know quite well that antisemites like spiritlevel are out there. Do they need to be in here?”

    I can’t speak for the moderators, but some of us, even those of us who are painfully with the “new” antisemitism (I’ll start with me), should maybe be reminded how it’s been mainstreamed and given a sick moral credibility. We like to think we’re in polite company here… but we’re also too often in similar polite company in social or professional settings when we get slapped in the face with “You’re not a European, you’re a Jew,” for example, or all the other examples of it.

    And for those who continue to believe that such mainstreamed hatred doesn’t exist or has been “retro-justified” by the ZOG, The Lobby and The Entity, well, here’s yet another example what real 21st century antisemitism is (same as all the other versions but with new user friendly features).. Keep ignoring it… rationalizing it… enabling it… and even passively embracing it. Maybe they’ll kill you last. Just remember, you don’t have to be a Israeli, Zionist or even Jewish to be a “new” antisemite’s target and eventually, they’ll find a reason to come to you.

    Reply
    • Evan Says:
      April 29, 2009 at 8:50 am

      Bill, you say
      “but we’re also too often in similar polite company in social or professional settings when we get slapped in the face with ‘You’re not a European, you’re a Jew,’ for example, or all the other examples of it.”

      And in the Middle East, Jews get slapped with “You don’t belong in Palestine, you’re European”. We can’t win!

      Reply
      • Bill Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 1:30 pm

        Very true, Evan but one little thing…

        The person who got the ‘You’re not a European, you’re a Jew.” Wasn’t Jewish, was rather Christian and very European. Nobody can win with these people.

        Reply
  40. Sabato Says:
    April 28, 2009 at 11:09 pm

    Does Ryan think that this is antisemitism or not?

    “Jews Are Unwanted Here”

    ” FORMER Lord Mayor of Birmingham was today accused of telling a woman she was not a suitable inner-city Labour Party candidate because she is “white and Jewish”.

    Coun Mahmood Hussain, who served as Birmingham’s first Asian Lord Mayor seven years ago, is alleged to have made the comment to Elaina Cohen who wanted to stand in the East Handsworth and Lozells by-election.

    Ms Cohen, who is the former partner and current assistant to Perry Barr Labour MP Khalid Mahmood, has made an official complaint to both the Labour Party and Birmingham City Council. Today Coun Hussain denied her claim and said he would never make such a comment.”

    http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/04/28/jews-are-unwanted-here/

    Reply
    • Ryan Says:
      April 29, 2009 at 10:31 am

      Hi Sabato

      I agree this is a dispicable example of AntiSemitism and the person in question should be punished somehow. I have no argument here as this is a clear example where someowne is reffering to a Jew and not Israel and its policies.

      Reply
      • Bill Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 5:04 pm

        “I have no argument here as this is a clear example where someowne is reffering to a Jew and not Israel and its policies.”

        Even though this piece doesn’t mention Israel once, how many BDS/Boycotters, d’ya’think, are going to superimpose Israel onto this British Jew to rationalize it — using the “Livingstone Formulation” — right out of the box? Trust, me, we’ve been here before — heck, that’s how the LF got it’s name!

        Reply
  41. Bill Says:
    April 29, 2009 at 12:50 am

    Plus what is all this crap about needing to criticize Netanyahu & Lieberman to pander to anyone’s disingenuous sensibilities so we’re seen not as “honest” or “credible,” but instead, maybe a little less dishonest and maybe a little less illegitimate in our arguments. Most-to-all of us don’t think either-&-both of the two are good for Israel, let alone towards resolving the conflict. For so many of here, it’s a no-brainer, filed under D, for “Duh.”

    And it’s totally irrelevant, not only to this debate, but especially to the Keepers Of The Script To Which We Must All Adhere. The cold hard fact is that L&N are right on one thing — when Israel withdrew from Gaza, there was Durban 1 – and a lot of rocket attacks — which we are told by our betters that Israel should have ignored (the rockets, that is). And so on, as that particular screed went.

    When Israel fails to act “according to the script” it gets demonized. When we fail act “according to script” people get “disappointed,” as I recall. When Israel acts according to script, it … well… gets demonized. When we act according our prescribed script, … well shucks, why should I give a damn what they think. I graduated from Junior High years ago.

    Just remember the Karmi/Hirsh interview & “debate” in New Zealand radio. It’s a textbook example.

    Reply
    • Ryan Says:
      April 29, 2009 at 11:01 am

      This “Crap” Bill may not interest you but it is valid as

      – The main argument in regard to the Boycott is that it is dishonest because they do not boycott anyone else.

      – They don’t Critisize any other nation so strongly in regards to their foreign affairs.

      In regards to the these two points I am interested to know if you spend as much time concerned about other forms of rascism or if you are just interested in Anti Semitism. If so it kind of equates to the same kind of biased attention you are blaming them for.

      More importantly …..

      – Boycotters believe Israel is a Rascist Country and L+N are Rascists – This does not mean that every Israeli is then Rascist but it is a point that does need to be addressed and will come up more and more – so get used to it.

      You may not want to address any of the greivances of the boycotters or any Israeli critics but then what exactly do you hope to achieve?

      Im happy you graduated from high school years ago – well done chap.

      Reply
      • Ryan Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 11:32 am

        Correction – I should have written:

        If NOT it kind of equates to the same kind of biased attention you are blaming them for.

        Reply
        • Brian Goldfarb Says:
          April 29, 2009 at 12:31 pm

          “Im happy you graduated from high school years ago – well done chap.”

          You pompous snide git, Ryan. And you seriously expect to be taken seriously here?

          And given that Bill needs to have a PhD to do the jop he does, did you manage to get beyond GCSE?

      • modernityblog Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 1:27 pm

        “The main argument in regard to the Boycott is that it is dishonest because they do not boycott anyone else.”

        Rather there are several strong arguments against such a boycott of Israelis:

        1) it is discriminatory, and against EU and UK anti-discriminatory legislation, etc

        2) it would increase hostility towards Jews, and along with that racial attacks

        3) it is inconsistent

        4) it is historically oblivious to the long history of racial boycotts against Jews

        5) etc

        I hope that explains it.

        Now if pro-boycotters wish to dispense with antidiscrimination legislation, don’t mind if hostility and racial attacks towards Jews increase, or think that consistency is overrated, then that is a different story.

        Reply
      • Bill Says:
        April 29, 2009 at 2:17 pm

        Well duh Ryan.. I do… But I don’t think you want to hear about my contacts with Native American colleges and defending them sniffs & snorts from “posher” and whiter schools. As Lawrence Lowell would say, we’re not talking about antiracism or consistency, we’re talking about Israel, aren’t we? I’ve also defended underrepresented and women students and faculty against myths of affirmative action. But I seriously doubt that that doesn’t change my stock with boycotters either.

        Because here in this environment, I’m a defender of Israel against antisemitism but not against it’s own policies, but what does that matter? Any (even marginal) support of Israel against those who are held to no standards pretty much negates any anti-racist credentials I may have in the eyes of the bocyotters. We’ve played this game of Lucy Holds the Football too many times.

        And what does having us state the obvious about N&L have to do with “The main argument in regard to the Boycott is that it is dishonest because they do not boycott anyone else”? Especially when it doesn’t matter to the bocyotters if it’s a liberal or hardline government in Israel. As you point out, voting for N+L “proves” that Israel is a “racist country.” But the bocyotters need no proof, no due diligence. Heck they don’t even need any fact objective finding. They’re too smart to study. They know all the answers. What more do they have to learn? And they know thanks to their unscientific method that Israel was a racist country when they had a Labor government, not to mention when they had more hardline ones.

        As for biased attentions, I have to really direct you to the Tom Hickey gaffe in the BMJ letter – which you obviously haven’t read by the looks of it. He too addressed the biased attention he and his fellow bocyotters seem to give to Israel rather than to Zimbabwe, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran… The answer? Jews, not Israelis, have a tradition of scholarship and would be more sensitive to criticism rather than any of these nations and cultures, each of which have made their mark on history (what does that make them?). That piece was the most clear example of how the bocyotters are consciously singling out Israel as Jews and violates UK and US anti-discrimination and harassment law (not to mention insults the other countries on his list). You can’t get around what he said, and the rest of his argument falls apart with that slip.

        http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/335/7611/124

        That’s the best they can do – the BMJ is filled with certified smart people, you know, like Medical Doctors and researchers. And any human resources rep worth their paycheck would tell them to get stuffed.

        Reply
        • Ryan Says:
          April 29, 2009 at 2:49 pm

          Thanks for the link Bill

          I was looking for it – Im going to leave work soon so Im not going to reply until I get home, which will be a while. Just to let you know – I disagree with an Academic Boycott – becaus e obviously excluding Israeli academics would only make the situation worse.

          Ill answer your points and modernityblogs later tonight.

        • Bill Says:
          April 29, 2009 at 3:25 pm

          Yes, it’s good that you don’t agree with the boycott but in all honestly, and no offense, so what?

          You aren’t calling for a boycott that violates UCU’s own rules, not to mention the RRA the boycotters are. You didn’t write the BMJ case study on foot-in-mouth disease and internalized racism, an A-list UCUer did. You didn’t comment that Israeli Universities are illegitimate because “they promote Israeli culture” along with their other scholarly endeavors (which, BTW, is yet another certified stupid shoe-muncher when you look at the broader implications towards very legitimate black and tribal colleges), a boycott supporter did. You didn’t post a link to DavidDuke.Com (Come on, Ryan! It’s FreakingDavidFreakingDuke.FreakingCOM!), or as the mailing list’s moderator, retaliated against the whistleblowers, UCU Activist list members and moderators did. And the UCU and the divestment campaign is still swerving merrily on like a “buzzed” driver who just clipped a couple pedestrians at midnight at 70 mph in a residential neighborhood. And admittedly, you haven’t been along for the ride as long as some of us have.

          The fact is that the UCU boycott clique is recklessly playing with their union’s clout in credibility over an issue that has relatively little relevance over pay, work conditions etc. And in doing so is also doing serious damage towards redefining academic freedom both by academia within the boycott clique and by those outside of the academy who’d seek to reel us all in. (It ain’t just about Israel. And it’s been leaking over here.)

          And with all this egregious behavior and its implications, people are going to great lengths to minimize the impact of what they are doing, or simply taking their side, despite the dishonesty, not to mention the implicit & explicit racism in their actions — because they’ve chosen a politically (and superficially) correct side in a very complex and dirty debate.

          And you wonder why we’re all having fts about this.

  42. Saul Says:
    April 29, 2009 at 8:38 am

    “Hamas was democratically elected by a poll of the people under the supervision of the EU.”

    Erm, would be that the group whose covenant includes the Protocols, who have murdered TU activists, who hae and are murdering members of Fatah, and who the PA representative walked out when their main funder rose to speak.

    It may seem strange to spiritlevel but those of us who raise the question of antisemitism are consistent when refusing to support the more racist and reactionary elements of the Palestinian movement.

    He accuses anti-antisemities of being blind to the facts, but I think the accustation is more like a self-description.

    As with so many of his ilk, he reduces the Palestinians to the ideal of the “noble savage” (a common theme amongst European colonists). Maybe he should consider his own racist and patronising views of concrete people living in a concrete socio-political situation seeking a concrete socio-political solution to a socio-political conflict.

    Reply
  43. Albatros Says:
    April 29, 2009 at 11:39 am

    just ask those *&?*?&?** one question: what other country did you boycott this year?

    easy answer: none, nada, zip, niente, nichts.

    they’re only obsessed with the “organized jews” and the “zionist influence” : in france, in the States, in Canada, and of course in Israel.

    Reply
  44. raphael Says:
    April 29, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    Sorry guys

    I will translate some more of this text later in the week.

    One thing that I found remarkable is that the speaker often employed “Chez nous” to emphasize that these Israeli (or not Israeli for that matter) products were alien to the “real” French people.

    “Chez nous” referred to France, but “Our place” is not a very good translation, because in French the same word would be used for “My home”. In the political spectrum, only JM Le Pen of the National Front would use “Chez nous” in such a way. This movie is fundamentally racist; really disgusting shocking stuff.

    Raphael, French and not proud of it…

    Reply
    • Albatros Says:
      April 30, 2009 at 11:14 am

      hélas, il y a toujours eu et il y aura toujours des illuminés du genre europalestine en France et ailleurs.

      on en a des semblables ici au Canada, qui ne vont dans la rue et ne boycottent que lorsque l’Etat juif est concerné… les tamouls ou les tibétains en savent quelque chose.

      take care.

      Reply
  45. valhalla Says:
    April 29, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    The aim here is to obscure & drag down the level of debate & discussion & reduce legitimate criticism to a formula of “anti jew/ anti semite”. There is forever present above a stasis in your condition which seeks to reduce, batter down – an extension & reflection of what the israeli state machine is attempting at every juncture & quarter. Inward looking & seeking to re-affirm deep seated prejudices . If anyone has a claim on being afflicted with prejudice, it is your critics who are automatically branded as anti semites. At every quarter you play the “anti-semite” card, as if this is a defence of zionism. The grasping of a “broken straw” anti-semitism is a deeply debased currency, made so by its massive over misuse. You have used it at every juncture down the decades of the conflict in Palestine where the claim is clearly false & utterly irrelevant.Surely it is time that you addressed the real issues in an open & honest way & join in the seeking of a fair & just peace, like the rest of us in the Free World.

    Reply
    • Brian Goldfarb Says:
      April 29, 2009 at 11:04 pm

      “Surely it is time that you addressed the real issues in an open & honest way & join in the seeking of a fair & just peace, like the rest of us in the Free World.”

      Nice one, valhalla, like in Afghanistan, Iraq, Darfur, Zimbabwe, Tibet, over the treatment of women in Syria and Saudia Arabia…need I go on?

      Valhalla is used these days (see Searchlight, passim, and ask Karl Pfeiffer) by Nazis and other antisemites.

      Thinly disguised antisemitism…no, actually, very poorly disguised antisemitism.

      How about all the others _not_ “seeking of a fair & just peace, like the rest of us in the Free World.” Interesting to know which bit of the Free Woprld valhalla inhabits – JewWatch, maybe?

      Reply
      • Waterloo Sunset Says:
        April 30, 2009 at 5:06 pm

        Um, Brian, this is a minor point, but I really don’t think its at all helpful to insinuate that all Asatru are Nazis and antisemites.

        They aren’t. See this article- http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/racism.htm

        To be clear, I don’t disagree with you on Valhalla, both because of the nature of his posts and that specific choice of username (it’s much like a Christian calling themselves “Heaven”. A bit weird).

        I’m sure there’s no malice or deliberate dishonesty on your part. But tarring entire fringe religions with the behaviour of a vocal racist minority within them really isn’t a good idea, on both tactical and moral grounds.

        Reply
        • Brian Goldfarb Says:
          April 30, 2009 at 9:04 pm

          Waterloo Sunset (great tune, by the way), I was trying to say that, as a matter of fact, those who in contemporary Europe use designations such as “valhalla” are overwhelmingly neo-nazis, fascists, racists and antisemites, just like the young man I say walking through a crowd in Copenhagen last (’08) April carrying a wolf’s head banner (white head on black background) – are you telling me he was a pagan rather than a neo-nazi?

          I have no intention of insulting those who reject all “modern” gods and cleave to the ancient ones, but otherwise hold no views as to the levels of humanity of all those who differ from them in matters of religious belief, skin colour, etc.

          Most importantly, I’m sure that those who follow me in commenting (and you?) are convinced that he who designates himself (apologies for the sexist assumption of gender) “valhalla” is exactly as we describe him. If we agree on that, then your objection is unnecessary, because it should be plain that I attacking the use of the term “valhalla”, and those who use it, in 2009, not paganism (or the ancient gods).

          To sum up, my post is based on actual, empirical, uses of (or misuses) of such terms, and not a knee-jerk reaction against the ancient gods.

    • Bill Says:
      April 30, 2009 at 1:13 pm

      Uh Val…

      Link to David Duke.Com and you better damn well expect me to call you a racist and an antisemite. Say that Israel should be boycotted because it has Jews, the global nerds, unlike the other counties like Iran and China that don’t value scholarship (you know, like those Jews) and I’ll call you a racist and an antisemite. Say that Israeli colleges, aren’t real because they help promote Jewish Culture with no similar de-consideration towards Black, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Ba’hai and tribal colleges and I’ll call you an antisemite and an idiot (see I’m not just a one trick pony).

      Are you OK with all the above? I, for one, sleep like a baby over all of ’em.

      Now just criticize the occupation and call for its end and such in a sober manner without leveraging orgasmic antisemetic and racist memes and stereotypes and I will NOT call you an antisemite, idiot or racist. I might even agree with you — hell, even more than might.

      Can you cope with that non-contradiction, Val? Or would you like me to extend that same courtesy to the proven bigots in the top paragraph — maybe so you don’t have to think about when you might be crossing the line? And, no, that’s not a low blow: the UCU activist clique went to great lengths to cultivate an environment that ensured that linking to DavidDuke.Com was not “as such” antisemetic.

      Reply
  46. Siggy Says:
    April 29, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    http://aktualne.centrum.cz/czechnews/clanek.phtml?id=635863

    You want “inflammatory” try this…………….

    Ryan, what do you think about this news story?

    Reply
  47. Siggy Says:
    April 29, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    Hmmmmm, do I detect a little slippage here?

    From the above,

    “The Nazis used to divide art into the one they accept and the other they considered degenerated and that had no right to exist. The people from Prague Jewish community did exactly the same. And they did it in a way that would make the German Nazi parties proud.”

    so, not only are “Zionists” nazis, but now Jews are too…………….

    Reply
  48. Saul Says:
    April 29, 2009 at 11:55 pm

    “You have used it at every juncture down the decades of the conflict in Palestine where the claim is clearly false & utterly irrelevant.Surely it is time that you addressed the real issues in an open & honest way & join in the seeking of a fair & just peace, like the rest of us in the Free World.”

    my, my, my……………….what an interesting use of “you” and “us”.

    Apparently for the Wangerian-infused Valhalla, “you” is a collective noun to of liars who in showing the presence of antisemitism in “legitimate criticism of Israel” are distinguishable from the “us” who believe in a “free world”.

    So, now it is not solely about Israel and Palestine, but an existential battle between world slavery and world freedom. with those who think that maybe Israel is, for all its problems and wrongdoings, not the greatest evil in the world to be separated out from the free-loving folk. This type of thinking has a long pedigree doesn’t it? You know, Jews v “the rest” (be it freedom-lovers, nationalists, those with humanity, etc.; not to mention the similarities with Dubya’s “you’re with us or against us” – a veiled threat per chance?

    (Erm, by the way, Engage has not be going for “decades” but for about 5 years, but I guess it is hard for Valahalla to make distinctions – all “Zonists” look, sound and smell the same to him no doubt. Is this what he means by “legitimate criticism of Israel? Sounds like crude negative stereotyping, you know, the kind that informs racist perceptions of the world).

    However, my favourite bit of his nonsense is the idea that “legitimate criticism of Israel” is falsely accused of antisemitism.

    Has Valhalla read Engage at all?

    Of course, it could just be that he does not recognise what he finds there indicative of antisemitism!

    As to the “debased currency” that is a classic defence of the indefensible. It is an argument that those expressing antisemitism use as a talisman for being shown of what their ideas consist of. It is used to ward off the truth of their own comments.

    It is akin to the misogynists’ argument that women are debasing the “currency” ) of sexual abuse by crying “rape” when the true extent of the incidents and cases of sexual violence becomes apparent.

    The notion of debasing a concept of abuse is the last refuge of the perpetrator and of those that justify the crime in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

    By way of postscript, is it only coincidence that when coming to the question of antisemitism, is it presented in terms of “currency being debased”? Why this metaphor of money? and the related notion of Jews trading in in such false and worthless value?

    Really Valhalla, nothing anyone else can say can show just how wrong you are when compared to your own words.

    Reply
  49. Saul Says:
    April 30, 2009 at 12:11 am

    Almost forgot the now statutory accusation of dishonesty.

    “Surely it is time that you addressed the real issues in an open & honest way & join in the seeking of a fair & just peace,”

    So, what image does Valhalla have of those who raise the question of antisemitism.

    Liars
    Haters and enemies of the free-world
    Insulae and “inward-looking”
    Silencers and manipulators of “open” debate
    Dishonest
    Mouthpieces of their brethren (the Israeli state)
    Traders in false currency

    But, since Valhalla thinks his comments are “legitimate criticism of Israel” any connection between this image of “you” with those “the Jew” of classic antisemitism can only be pure coincidence.

    What else could it be?

    Reply
  50. Siggy Says:
    April 30, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    More “legitimate criticism of Israel”

    http://judicial-inc.biz/n.,ew_york_venture_fund_buys_chrys.htm

    And similar fantasies from the following,

    http://www.thefreedomrevolution.com/articles-by-author-name/55-graf-aaron/1855-the-fascist-trends-of-zionism

    http://judicial-inc.biz/n.,ew_york_venture_fund_buys_chrys.htm

    Reply
  51. Imshin Says:
    May 1, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    As an Israeli, I am quite thrilled with the amount of Israeli produce on offer in this French supermarket. A recent survey revealed that Europeans tend to regard Israeli goods as quality produce, even if these people are opposed to Israeli policy.

    On the other hand, this undisturbed mob action on private property makes me wonder about the rule of law in France. I doubt such a demonstration could have received a license. These people are trespassing and damaging goods belonging not to Israel but to the supermarket chain. Incredible.

    Reply

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