Jews for justice for Palestinians: how they remember Holocaust Memorial Day.

The official Jews For Justice For Palestinians’ facebook page is Here.  On Holocaust Memorial Day this week they remembered the day by posting with the hashtag HolocaustMemorialDay this image taken from the war last year in Gaza.

[Images removed after threat of legal action from JfJfP’s social media strategist Aaron Dover, who didn’t want them posted here (did JfJfP have permission to use them? Who knows). The first was a picture of razed Gazan buildings and the caption NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE, with the JfJfP logo and the #HolocaustMemorialDay hashtag. The second was a Gazan child crying over the corpse of another Gazan child, same caption, same hashtag.]

 Their current header is another popular photo from last year’s war in Gaza which also has the #HolocaustMemorialDay.

On Holocaust Memorial Day, why don’t they remember the Holocaust?

The Israel/Palestine conflict is not like the Holocaust.

During the Holocaust six million Jews from across Europe were selected, isolated, and murdered on an industrial scale. Others were selected and murdered too, like lesbians and gay men, Roma people and the disabled.

The Israel Palestine conflict is a small local conflict in the Middle East between two nations who are unable to find a peace between them, with rights and wrongs on both sides. It isn’t like the Holocaust.

The politics of mobilizing Holocaust Memorial Day against “Zionism” is a disgraceful one.  It tries to paint Jewish survivors as being equivalent to the Nazis who tried to kill them; it hints that Jews who remember the Holocaust are actually doing so for disgraceful reasons; it denies the hugeness of the Nazi plot to kill the Jews by making it seem like an ordinary conflict over ordinary things.

Sure, let’s talk about the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

But not on Holocaust Memorial Day.

On Holocaust Memorial Day, let’s remember what happened in the heart of Europe to the European Jews.

110 Responses to “Jews for justice for Palestinians: how they remember Holocaust Memorial Day.”

  1. aarondover Says:

    We remembered the Holocaust, which is why at the top it mentions Holocaust Memorial Day, if you look closely. Thank you for helping to spread our vitally important message; the correct lesson from that awful event; a universal and humanitarian lesson.

    Our page allows for comments and discussion but instead you choose to snipe at what we do from the safety of your blog which you control and the comments of which you moderate.

    If you have something to say, come and say it to our community of supporters on our page. We welcome all feedback. Only you have the cowardice to have to use these tactics to undermine our work.

    The images we posted that you refer to above are the most popular and shared of any recent posts, and many have thanked us and found these very moving.

    Thank you again for helping us to reach an audience we otherwise might not.

    • Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

      “Our page allows for comments and discussion but instead you choose to snipe at what we do from the safety of your blog which you control and the comments of which you moderate.”

      This is self serving tendentious nonsense: all blogs are moderated and all commenters do so “from the safety of their blog.”

      You should apologize to all Holocaust survivors for using their suffering in order to dehumanize their descendant for fighting to stay alive.

      • aarondover Says:

        The images above reached around 35,000 people so far of whom around 3000, so almost 10%, engaged in some way with it (click/like/share) on Facebook. About 2800 people have liked, commented on and shared them. We have had zero negative comments, until the ones on this blog.

        You may find the below of interest.

        “The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network released the following statement in response to a controversy concerning its speaking tour Never Again For Anyone.

        (NEW YORK 1/30/2011) — Yesterday, right wing counter protestors disrupted an event honoring the memory of the Nazi Holocaust, ignoring the event’s message of support for all who continue to fight for their rights and for collective humanity. Concerned with protecting speakers and audience members, police closed the event for more than one hour, with the result that a number of interested participants were unable to enter. ”

        http://mondoweiss.net/2011/02/never-again-for-anyone-right-wing-zionists-attempt-to-muzzle-holocaust-survivor-speaking-for-palestinian-rights

        • Richard Gold Says:

          Perhaps you can tell me if any officers or past officers of JFJFP have liked these posts Aaron?

        • pots and kettles Says:

          ‘About 2800 people have liked, commented on and shared them. We have had zero negative comments, until the ones on this blog.’

  2. Avi in Jerusalem Says:

    I was going to respond this graphic on the previous post. It is designed precisely to lie, defame and insult the idea behind Holocaust day. As the organization which puts it up has Jews in its title, then it also give a kashrut certificate for all those who belittle (quote “yawn” A. Dover) and deign to make moral equivalence between the industrial murder of millions of Jews and the unfortunate deaths of those caught in one of many national conflicts worldwide.

    JFJFP knows exactly what it is doing and obviously enjoys the thrill of sticking to the Jews. I do not use the term fellow Jews. JFJFS has a long and dishonorable chain of forebears of all those Jews who saw the light, moved on to some higher moral plane and were morally superior to their ex fellow Jews. We saw them throughout Christianity, in Islam, in the various Communist and nationalist movements. They were and are the fig leaf that the Jew haters used to justify their beliefs and actions.

  3. Angelo Says:

    The Israeli left and many Orthodox Jews are against the atrocities the Israeli government are doing to the Palestinians. Murdering children, destroying families, making orphans, bombing densely populated neoghborhoods, demolishing homes, occupying and oppressing, arresting children, arresting people and holding them while never charging them with crimes, protecting bullies who abuse Palestinians to scare them into moving, writing die arabs and stars on their homes, the list goes on. And many of these atrocities have been going on for 70 years. If this is not a holocaust then maybe we should come up with a new name because it definitely is inhumane, immoral, and against the laws of any God of any religion.

    • Avi Says:

      The Orthodox Jews of whom you speak do not care a flying fig about the Palesitinians or any so-called atrocities. They use the arabs as a stick with which to beat the State of Israel which they oppose on theological grounds.

    • aarondover Says:

      This opens a very interesting debate over how it is that we choose (or are simply instructed by authorities) what exactly to memorialise and how, and what is deemed appropriate and inappropriate on those days. By seeking to tell us what is inappropriate you elevate yourself to be an authority on what and how we can memorialise an event.

      It is not about a day; the image remains on our page. We remember this Holocaust and many other horrors, every day, and are forced to by the nature of the images we are presented with. It comes with the territory of following what happens in Palestine because the war there never ends, the horrors are every day.

      I personally was reminded of the Holocaust every day, all day, throughout the Summer of 2014 because I was so frequently seeing images of the atrocities being carried out which were so brutal that the first association that came to mind was the images we have seen in Yad Vashem and other places. Some of the images would make me feel physically sick.

      After some time I realised that the main difference in these images from those of other atrocities was not that I was looking at lesser horrors; in fact the opposite. Hitler and other perpetrators of former massacres did not have DIME munitions, flechettes, Merkava shells of various other kinds, weapons that tear a body to shreds, amputating multiple limbs by design. These are weapons designed specifically to maximise the carnage and laceration of limbs within the target area. We saw some very unusual weapons in some of the photos from Gaza, some still unidentified, all in civilian areas. Other injuries inspected by Mads Gilbert and others showed evidence of testing of new weapons; injuries of a kind they were unfamiliar with from earlier rounds of “mowing the lawn”. He described some bodies as looking burned and melted in ways they cannot explain.

      Nobody owns any days, and what we may think of on those days, or what we choose to care about. We choose to care about current horrors as well as past horrors because of course it is more hopeful to consider current horrors which we can do something about, rather than resign ourselves to looking back hopeless and wringing our hands at something that cannot now be undone.

      • Richard Gold Says:

        Aaron Dover has just written: “After some time I realised that the main difference in these images from those of other atrocities was not that I was looking at lesser horrors; in fact the opposite. Hitler and other perpetrators of former massacres did not have DIME munitions, flechettes, Merkava shells of various other kinds, weapons that tear a body to shreds, amputating multiple limbs by design. These are weapons designed specifically to maximise the carnage and laceration of limbs within the target area. We saw some very unusual weapons in some of the photos from Gaza, some still unidentified, all in civilian areas. Other injuries inspected by Mads Gilbert and others showed evidence of testing of new weapons; injuries of a kind they were unfamiliar with from earlier rounds of “mowing the lawn”. He described some bodies as looking burned and melted in ways they cannot explain.”

        • Avi in Jerusalem Says:

          No. The comparison is obscene.
          Hitler had Einsatzgruppen (German for “task forces”, “deployment groups”; singular Einsatzgruppe; official full name Einsatzgruppen der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD) were Schutzstaffel (SS) paramilitary death squads of Nazi Germany that were responsible for mass killings, primarily by shooting. He had gas chambers. He had slave labour camps for slow death by pointless work and starvation. He had the cooperation of vast swathes of the population in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East (including haj Amin el Husenni, the Palestinian leader).

          The reference to Mads Gilbert is apt, not only by forename. The man is Maoist doctor whose grasp of reality is filtered through his particular brand of lethal totalitarian politics.

        • pots and kettles Says:

          Fucking Zionists and their ‘naziwash’, eh aarondover?

        • zaccaerdydd Says:

          Oh dear oh dear, Aaron: in other words, in your view, Israeli Jews are worse than the Nazis, and Palestinian Muslims and Christians are even more victims than diasporan Jews.

          Might one observe that diasporan Jews didn’t say Germany was really Judaea, vow to liberate it of Germans, with the aid of Qassem or all manner of relatively modern weapons?

          In fact, for 2000 years, they had to live with with most European, North African, Asian and Palestinian Christians and Muslims saying they were a people properly deemed exiled and dispossessed, and to be kept in an appropriately humiliated state? In which state, for the most part, they meekly kept, whatever Christians or Muslims did to them.

          Hence Nazis’ being able to kill them with incomparably more modern and efficient means, or had you forgotten that fact?

          Dime munitions are in fact by comparison a most inefficient means of mass murder.

          Idiot.

      • Mordy Says:

        You’re a sick dude, Aaron Dover.

    • Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

      Each and every conflict between people can be characterized as being against God and religion.
      Your obsessive focus on the Israeli-Palestinian Arab conflict is a sign of an inability to see the suffering on both sides. It is also an attempt to dehumanize Jews, period.

      To be fair one needs to see the conflict in relation to other conflicts in the region.When done so the conflict in terms of casualties since the 1920’s is about a hundred thousand killed and about a hundred and twenty five thousand wounded. Compare that to the casualties in the Syrian civil war: according to the UN there have been there have been close to two-hundred thousand people killed. in three years of war.*

      Each death and wounded in a conflict is disgraceful but no single people have a monopoly on guilt. To portray Jews as uniquely evil is to single them out for total destruction and Hamas and Hezbollah do.

      * (Hezbollah, btw, has killed many thousands of Suni Syrian civilians in this conflict. And is helping in your own words to murder “….children, destroying families, making orphans, bombing densely populated neoghborhoods, demolishing homes, occupying and oppressing, arresting children, arresting people.”

      I get it: you don’t seem to care about civilians casualties your only aim is to demonize the Jewish State..

    • Avi in Jerusalem Says:

      Nice try Angelo, but your grip on reality slips completely by the end of your rant. 70 years of atrocities eh? “inhumane, immoral, and against the laws of any God of any religion”. Well those Jews obviously do not deserve their own nation State and we should do our utmost to cut them down to size. They denied the redemption by Jesus Christ, rejected Mohammed, forsook Karl Marx and did not match up to the moral stature of the participants in a London dinner party. They should be Boycotted, Disinvested and Sanctioned until they learn their place in civilsed human society.

      You and your mates make our role in preserving a civilised country here in Israel and making peace with our neighbours, near and far, infinitely more difficult, but that does not concern you, does it?

  4. Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

    “Sure, let’s talk about the conflict between Israel and Palestine.
    But not on Holocaust Memorial Day”

    This is key. Using the Holocaust suffered by Jews as a paradigm for other conflicts is way of de-legitimating .
    both the Holocaust as well as the conflict used to compare it. Jfjfp is not helping the Palestinian Arabs by using such comparisons they are in fact the chances for peace and reconciliation. Peace can only be achieved by mutual recognition of the suffering on both sides. If one side believes the other side is monstrous then peace will never be achieved. One doesn’t negotiate with nazis one needs to destroy them. This is why Jfjfp is hurting the chances for peace. Besides portraying the “Jew as monster” is an age old anti-Jewish stereotypical image. Ironically portraying the Palestinian as “pure victims” is to dehumanize them also. It sees them as people without agency as children and not as sovereign actors in their own cause.

    The jfjfp should be ashamed of themselves for dehumanizing both sides of the local conflict.

  5. pots and kettles Says:

    Hey, aarondover, don’t you just hate the way people exploit the Holocaust to score cheap political points for their views on Israel. I mean, really, who would be that low, that cheap, that disgusting?

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3ATPfzcPq9UUUJ%3Ajfjfp.com%2F%3Fp%3D67749+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

  6. pots and kettles Says:

    More than happy to spread the views of JJfP.
    ‘Thank you’, I ‘found these very moving’………..

    this is the one I really like – ‘goosestepping to support Israel round the world’; had me in stitches.

    And, then there’s the Latuff cartoon one can also find Jjfp fb page.

    • aarondover Says:

      Latuff always nails it, as you are proving right here in this very thread🙂

    • Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

      jfjfp should rename itself as Jews for justice for everyone except Jews. Jfjfeej. That is you.

      btw: the cartoon has it backwards. Jews may see a cartoon as antisemitic but they don’t kill the cartoonist and they don’t call for the closing down of newspapers that print such cartoons.

      We have been living with antisemitic cartoon since the founding or printing presses. We are not simple minded and know that you can’t stop antisemitism through censorship.

      However we do have a right to call a cartoon antisemitic and explaining why we think so. This is an attempt to start a conversation about cartoons not a call to censorship.

      Your cartoon above shows clearly that you have adopted an anti-Jewish point of view.

  7. pots and kettles Says:

    love this one too…….you know, how the US is not independent cos its controlled by Israel.
    (oh, and I love the comments of people who no doubt were moved so much by it……’That is very true. The USA is in the pocket of Israel’. Class, real class (as another comment put it).

  8. aarondover Says:

    This does all beg a rather obvious question which is; if you don’t like what we post on our page or website, why don’t you just look at something else? It is strange that none of you choose to comment on the page, if you are prepared to make your case in the face of alternative views. This is presumably why you need to sift through the page for items to criticise and then bring them here to your echo chamber of likeminded voices. Plenty of other people actually ENGAGE which is of course the misnomer of your group.

    • Richard Gold Says:

      Aaron, as i asked you before : Perhaps you can tell me if any officers or past officers of JFJFP have liked these posts Aaron?

      • aarondover Says:

        I’m afraid I neither have that information nor do I feel it is my place to disclose who likes what, but feel free to ask the exec via the contact form on http://jfjfp.com if you require their input.

    • pots and kettles Says:

      ‘Plenty of other people actually ENGAGE which is of course the misnomer of your group’.

      ‘About 2800 people have liked, commented on and shared them. We have had zero negative comments, until the ones on this blog.’

      ‘This is presumably why you need to sift through the page for items to criticise and then bring them here to your echo chamber of likeminded voices’.

      So, when people do have ‘negative comments’ that is an ‘echo chamber’, but when people simply agree, that is ‘engagement!
      With ‘logic’ like that now we know why ‘vous sont false flag’.

      • aarondover Says:

        But; I am engaging with you here, however by doing it over here you choose not to include all the rest of the growing community who support our work. You must have a reason, perhaps you’d like to clarify it?

        • Avi in Jerusalem Says:

          Aaron, I do not have to waste my time and energy in a useless one side polemic with a group of true believers, especially if the website is policed for ideological purity. I would not read or comment on a website of the SWP or Islamists or the National Front or the scientologists. They have what passes for their minds already made up by their elders and betters.
          It is important that the insulting stuff that you publish and are proud of gets to see the light of day on website dedicated to fighting the forces intent on Deligitimising, Boycotting, Disinvesting and Sanctioning the world’s only Jewish state.

        • Avi in Jerusalem Says:

          It must be really wonderful to have such a comforting one dimensional view of the world where there is no room for any complexity, no human behaviour, where there is just black or white, good or evil. Your framing of quotes and sources would do credit to all of your turncoat propagandist predecessors. You are the next in long line of cowards trying to curry favour with those who hate and despise Jews so that they will accept you and just turn their venom on the other, bad Jews.

  9. aarondover Says:

    The ban on events marking the Palestinian Nakba has been in place for some time now in Israel. Not everything gets a designated apt time to remember it, so we must fit remembering of other events into our calendars also.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/may/28/israel-palestine-nakba-day

    • Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

      aarondover Says:
      “The ban on events marking the Palestinian Nakba has been in place for some time now in Israel. Not everything gets a designated apt time to remember it, so we must fit remembering of other events into our calendars also.”

      Yes remember other events also. Remember the tens of thousands of Mizrachi Jews expelled from Arab lands.
      Is there any Arab country which allows for remembrance of the expelled and murdered Jews? Does Iraq remember them, does Syria. Perhaps they are too busy creating other remembrances as the slaughter of Arabs by other Arabs goes on”
      Why don’t you call for your organization to remember he children gassed by Assad? Is that too uncomfortable for you? Is the murder of Arab children by Assad and Hezbollah too close to the actual Holocaust for you?
      You keep asking for a dialogue but you keep not engaging anyone here.
      You are like a troll here only to repeat your mantra of the evil Jews who kill Arabs.
      Btw: as long as Palestinian Arabs fashion their Naqba after the Holocaust (which a falsification of reality) I wouldn’t support any commemoration of it. How is your claim of the Naqba different from the neo-Nazi and Nazi claim (all over Europe but especially in places like Lithuania, etc.) that they too suffered a Naqba at the hand of the “Bolshevik Jews?”

      I am sorry Aaron I can’t take your comments seriously and won’t until you show a readiness to debate people who have fundamental disagreement with you.

    • David Sigeti Says:

      There is no “ban on events marking the Palestinian Nakba” in Israel. If aarondover had actually bothered to read the article to which he linked, he would know that it refers to a law that was *proposed*, not a law that was passed.

      What actually *did* pass was a law that prohibits the use of public funds to mourn the foundation of the state of Israel. Such a ban is a matter of the government of Israel exercising *its* freedom of speech, by declining to spend its own funds for advocacy of a position that it abhors. If any person or group wants to commemorate the Naqba, or even explicitly mourn the foundation of Israel for that matter, they are completely free to do so. They just cannot spend public funds to do so.

      • aarondover Says:

        Hi David unfortunately what you say is incorrect. Actually it allows the state to withdraw funding from any organisation that is associated with any marking of the Palestinian historical narrative, as opposed to simply not funding the events. The state never funded the events, what changed was that all institutions receiving any state funding were placed at risk of losing their funding if they dared to publicly cover the subject. 972mag had some very good coverage of this.

        “The language of the law–which allows the state to withdraw state funds from institutions who would mark the Palestinian disaster–refers in its written clause only to the “public” or “state supported” institutions organizing events to mourn at the Israeli Independence Day, but within its message it aims to create an atmosphere of terror against anyone who dares to touch the event that established the Jewish state. This law does scare people; it terrorizes them.”

        http://972mag.com/nakba-law-inside-pandoras-box/14477/

        http://972mag.com/despite-efforts-to-erase-it-the-nakbas-memory-is-more-present-than-ever-in-israel/71468/

        http://972mag.com/watch-nakba-discourse-on-the-rise-inflaming-passions-on-all-sides/48136/

        There are dozens of articles on the subject as the law was so contentious at the time and despite efforts of the censor it did reach some of the public discourse although was largely ignored by the more compliant press.

      • Kerry Sanders Says:

        Uh huh. And Palestinians have equal rights to Jews in Israel. You can call between the edges if you want but you cannot deny that Israel is an apartheid state.

  10. pots and kettles Says:

    ‘You must have a reason, perhaps you’d like to clarify it?’

    With pleasure.

    aarondover, you seem to be under the impression that I take you seriously. I don’t. True, I don’t normally waste my time with internet cranks (no matter how seriously they take themselves), but this was too good a chance to miss………and your own vanity hasn’t allowed you to see that I have done nothing other than take the piss out of you. And, why?
    Because, lets’ be honest, you are a complete and utter conspiracy theory nutjob.
    You have seriously argued, among other things, that – you think Israel may well have been behind the shooting of journalists and Jews; you think 9/11 may well have been a Mossad plot; you think that Operation Protective Edge was a worse horror than the Holocaust; that antisemitism and the Holocaust is used by Zionists to shut critics of Israel up; that the US is in the pocket of Israel.
    The fact that these fantasies appeal to a ‘growing community who support our work’ explains everything there is to know why I won’t go within a million miles of you and your ilk.
    But, thanks, I’ve had a good time (but, then again, I am not from your planet!)

    Oh, sorry, almost forgot, (satire)🙂

    • aarondover Says:

      Like everyone, I have to wear different hats depending on what role I am carrying out. I have three hats when it come to this subject area. One is my personal hat, the second is my JFJFP hat, and a third is a satirical hat.

      Whilst you may seek to conflate my personal views with those of others, it is a little cheap. I notice in any case that you put rather a lot of views that you attribute to me that are not accurate. You don’t know me, but for some reason my views are of great concern to you. Why? I am not a politician or a journalist, I am an individual who campaigns towards the shared goals of JFJFP and try to have a little fun along the way when the situation allows for it. I am not on the JFJFP exec, I am simply a signatory who works extremely hard to advance the end of the occupation on a voluntary basis.

      If my ideas are bunk then no doubt they will wither on the vine of their own accord, so your energies might be better spent elsewhere.

      • Brian Goldfarb Says:

        “I have three hats when it come to this subject area. One is my personal hat, the second is my JFJFP hat, and a third is a satirical hat.” If that’s the case, why do those hats all look exactly the same? Hint: because they are.

      • Brian Goldfarb Says:

        “I have three hats when it come to this subject area. One is my personal hat, the second is my JFJFP hat, and a third is a satirical hat.” If that’s the case, why do those hats all look exactly the same? Hint: because they are.

        “We remembered the Holocaust, which is why at the top it mentions Holocaust Memorial Day, if you look closely.” Actually, you don’t. If you had, you (JfJfP) would have used that infamous image of the gate at Auschwitz with the slogan over it of “Arbeit Macht Frei” or something similar. But you don’t. You use an image from the Gaza-Israel conflict of 2014.

        What you are really trying to do is to conflate the two, of course, for those either already ideologically committed to the idea of conflation or for those incapable of thinking for themselves. That is, infamously, JfJfP and other anti-Zionist organisations are trying to tar Israel with the “genocide” brush.

        However, if you were serious about making the comparison and really wanting to conflate the two, you would have to demonstrate at least some (if not all – personally, I think it’s all) of the following:

        1. that there are mass graves on the West Bank of the thousands (millions?) of Palestinians murdered by the Israelis since 1967 (actually, hundreds would do the trick);

        2. that there were universities on the West Bank before 1967 (what, there weren’t? you mean those despicable Zionnazi Israelis created them? allowing freedom of thought? how dare they);

        3. that the population of Gaza declined precipitously between 1967 and the Israeli’s unilateral withdrawal in 2006, and/or since then, much as the populations of the ghettoes established by the Nazis in Eastern Europe did, between 1940-45;

        4. that the standard of living in Gaza declined from 1967 (using generally accepted international measures, not those of JfJfP’s devising), as well as, probably, those of the West Bank Palestinian population;

        5. that during Operation Pillar of Cloud (2012) and Operation Protective Edge (I agree that the names are ridiculous, but, hey, the military mind and all that) it wasn’t the case that at least (note the “at least”) half of those “civilians” killed were, in fact, militants, that is, members of Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad – don’t forget Richard Goldstone’s retreat from his initial Report on the 2012 conflict;

        6. that Hamas used human shields during Operation Protective Shield in 2014, a crime, per se, against humanity/a war crime in itself, leading to the non-militant civilian casualties alleged by enemies of Israel;

        7. that 800,000+ Jews weren’t expelled from Arab lands (and Iran) after 1948, more than matching the 700,000 Palestinian refugees, allegedly caused solely by Israeli actions during the 1947-49 conflict; and

        8. that the UN-appointed Commission of Enquiry conclusion into the Israeli blockade of the Gazan coast was that it was and is lawful was wrong in international law.

        I would be surprised (to put it mildly) if you, Aaron Dover, or any of your JfJfP friends (are you reading this, Deborah Fink?), can produce any evidence that would be acceptable to an impartial audience, let alone us.

        Go on, surprise us. And if you ignore the challenge, then we will know that you and your friends, are, in effect and intent, trolls: you don’t actually have any evidence of anything that would convince anyone not already ideologically committed to your point of view.

  11. aarondover Says:

    I know that Israel has been behind some of the acts you describe because I have been in contact with people who know some of journalists killed.

    “During the recent War on Gaza, a disproportionate number of civilians – many of them children – were killed in attacks by the Israeli Defense Forces. But there is another casualty of war which has received surprisingly little international attention. Since the bombing raids began, 17 journalists have been killed in Gaza, prompting calls for war crimes charges to be brought against the State of Israel and those involved in carrying out this war.”

    http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/08/these-17-journalists-were-killed-by-israel-in-gaza/

    • Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

      Aaron claims that he was “in contact with some people who know some of journalists killed.”
      Yet he quotes “countercurrentsnews.” Why not tells us who first hand sources (excuse the people who know some of the people killed.” In US courts this is known as “hearsay evidence.” Got any credible source? Counterculture is not exactly a credible source.

      It gets harder and harder to take you seriously Mr. Dover.

    • Brian Goldfarb Says:

      Missed this little beauty before. Although posted 9 hours after mine above it, it is possible that Aaron Dover’s hadn’t seen mine because it was still being moderated.

      However, he now shifts his ground: it’s no longer that delightful (that’s irony, Aaron) site Mondoweiss, but a different one. Still no evidence of balance, but it does conclude with a reference to the UN Human Rights Council setting up a Committee of Inquiry into Israel’s conduct of its behaviour during Protective Edge. That, in itself, is a joke, albeit a sick one. Even a casual glance at the members of this Council will show a majority of member states whose human rights records might well put Idi Amin to shame. Further, a significant number of that majority are Islamic states, with no love for Israel. Others are dictatorships whose human rights records are lamentable.

      And these jokes are to sit in judgement on Israel?

      I don’t see any evidence in the report linked to that actually addresses the issues, merely assertion, and nor is there any attempt at an answer to the points I urgently requested that he address.

      Do we have to wait for the usual amount of time (i.e., forever) for a response that addresses these issues?

      Don’t all answer at once.

      • aarondover Says:

        Brian Goldfarb thinks any lesser mortal than a Jew should not judge Jews. Well, last time when a nice impeccable Zionist Jew one Mr Goldstone did the job, everyone still bitched and moaned. Israel should be above the law, the people here do not believe in the rule of law, the law is simply a tool for the powerful and that is all.

        It just more tribal supremacist thinking.

  12. pots and kettles Says:

    ‘and try to have a little fun along the way when the situation allows for it.’

    You didn’t really mean all that stuff about how Israel was responsible for the shootings in Paris; how you think 9/11 may well have been a Mossad plot; how you think that Operation Protective Edge was a worse horror than the Holocaust; how antisemitism and the Holocaust is used by Zionists to shut critics of Israel up; how the US is in the pocket of Israel?
    They were just jokes; just a bit of fun; just a bit of a wind up? just a bit of a giggle to pass the time?

    You disgust me.

    • aarondover Says:

      You don’t even have the courage to reveal your identity in your own chat room so why would I be concerned with your opinion of me? You are a total stranger.

  13. aarondover Says:

    What I fundamentally don’t understand is why you are attacking me over my views and seem completely uninterested in discussing the policies you support and defend by doing so. Strange policies for self-described liberals to support, no?

    • Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

      What a tendentious example: in 1960 there was no PLO no Hamas Gaza was under Egyptian rule.
      2014 Gaza is under Hamas governance; it is a launching pad for rockets into Israeli civilian communities.

      It’s as if I were to post a picture of Berlin in 1910 and then one in 1945. What would that prove? That the allies were savage beasts? Photos are only as meaningful and the meaning knowing viewers give to them. Aaron doesn’t seem to know the basics of photo evidence.

      No wonder he quotes from mondoweiss.

      • aarondover Says:

        “What would that prove? That the allies were savage beasts?”

        Yes, although of course they had their reasons for choosing the policy of carpet-bombing civilians which, whilst totally immoral, ultimately proved effective.

        • Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

          Oh yes, the allies should have waged a moral war. If the Germans had won aaron would have been better of. Of course I wouldn’t have been here but that would not have bothered aaron one bit.
          His moral sense would have been assuaged.

      • Kerry Sanders Says:

        In 1960 there also was no Netanyahu or fringe far-Right version of the Likud Party. Your attempts to invalidate Aaron’s overarching points by equating his evidence to unrelated events, is the argument of an intellectual coward. The difference between Gaza in the 1960’s and Gaza in 2014, is the result of the activities of highly racist, hate-filled, intolerant Zionist ideologues, who are seeking the extermination of all Palestinians.

        • Brian Goldfarb Says:

          Pardon my interruption, Kerry Sanders, but what has your comment to do with the substantive issue that Jacob raises? Actually, all the evidence shows that from 1967 until the Israeli withdrawal in 2005, the standard of living in Gaza rose, including health issues, such as the Infant Mortality Rate. All this changed after Israel unilaterally withdrew and Hamas came in and started launching rockets into Israel.

          Just a small matter that appears to have escaped your notice, Kerry.

          And you offer no evidence for your assertion, just tendentious slogans – see your last sentence and tell us all where the evidence for this assertion (which is awfully close to antisemitism, btw) is.

        • Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

          “The difference between Gaza in the 1960’s and Gaza in 2014, is the result of the activities of highly racist, hate-filled, intolerant Zionist ideologues, who are seeking the extermination of all Palestinians.”
          Gaza was much better off from 1967 to roughly 1994 when the Oslo peace accords kicked in. But Brian already answered that point and I don’t intend to repeat what he said.
          I will focus on that part of the comment that project unto Zionists what it is you would like to see happen to Zionist Jews: their extermination. You said the following:
          “…the result of the activities of highly racist, hate-filled, intolerant Zionist ideologues, who are seeking the extermination of all Palestinians.”
          Except from some few Israelis, who have been on the receiving end of Palestinian Arab attacks aimed at their children in cradles, the elderly Jew, women and anyone they identify as Jewish, I know of no Zionist who seeks the “extermination of Palestinian” Arabs.
          Even the most rabid right wing anti-Arab parties in Israel don’t advocate it. The notion originates in the fevered imagination of Jew haters like, Jewish or non-Jewish.
          You and Mr. Dover believe that by repeating the BIG lie about Jew wishing the extermination of Arabs people will come to believe you.

          I have news for you people in Christian Europe and in the Muslim world have believed the worst about Jews for over a thousand years. They believed what they wanted to believe: that Jews must be evil for if they weren’t they would have embraced Christianity or Islam long ago.
          Everything you and your comrade Mr. Dover write about Zionists has been written about Jews for over a thousand years. Nothing you say is new, from your childish comic depiction of Jews (just were made fun of and mocked just before every murderous pogrom which saved its special savagery for pregnant Jewish women), to your name calling (coward is the least of it—and at least their imprecations weren’t uttered at a typing pad and screen—it takes a lot of courage to call someone a coward to your typewriter.)
          My point is that you are so naïve and childish, so ignorant of history that you pounce on your typewriter thinking that you have said something new.
          Why let me ask you are Jews “racist” for wanting a State of their own while Arabs are not racists for wanting one more State when they already have a dozen or more States?
          This only one of the issues that you take for granted when you call Zionist Jews racist. But you must know that since the only way you believe you can win an argument is by repeating again and again the “Jews are racist.” You borrowed your technique from the National Socialists who used ad nauseam till most of Europe and half of the Arab world believed it.
          Today you and most anti-Zionist are using the same technique hoping it will work.
          If Zionist Jews are racist beasts then the only way to deal with them is by exterminating: one can’t make peace with “racist beast” can they?
          But let’s get back to your juxtaposition of photographs: both the 1960 photo and the 2014 photo:
          There is nothing in the photographs that identifies their location. Still I’ll accept that what you said is true that these are photos of Gaza.
          Still, both photos are of specific locations and not of Gaza as a whole. The 1960 photo is a photo of a central point a bus terminal on a main street.
          The next photo is of demolished buildings. Where these were taken is anyone’s guess. Again I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that they were taken in Gaza after the 2014 war with Israel.
          Now, what you trying to tell me is that both pictures represent the conditions of Gaza as a whole in their respective periods.
          I do not accept that. Gaza as a whole was not demolished as even you must know. That buildings from which lethal rockets were fired at Israeli cities and towns were demolished doesn’t surprise me.
          Now, unless you are saying that rockets were fired from every building in Gaza then you must own up that not every building was hit.
          It’s obvious that the juxtaposition of these photos were meant to show “what racist beasts Jews are.”
          Perhaps they are, but if so then they must be stupid also because only a stupid beast would not destroy those whom he hates if he had the ability to do so.
          Jews may be a lot of things but stupid we are not and we have had the ability to destroy the Palestinian Arabs again and again. If they didn’t do so it’s because they had no intention to do so.
          Only in the feverish imagination of a racist anti-Semite like you and Mr. Dover are Jews plotting the destruction of all Palestinian Arabs.

          Finally, there are over a million Arabs living in Israel and hardly any Jews living in the Arab world. How did that happen? How come a racist country ruled by “beasts’ allows their enemies to live there, while in the peace loving Arab countries only a handful of Jews are allowed to stay?

          There is something terribly wrong with your picture, Kerry and Aaron!

  14. aarondover Says:

    Here is a further source just released.

    Independent investigation details Israel’s deliberate targeting of civilians in Gaza

    “A new independent medical fact-finding mission in Gaza has detailed Israel’s deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians in its summer 2014 attack, codenamed Operation “Protective Edge.” Acts documented in the investigation include the use of human shields, close-range murder of civilians, targeting of medics, and more.”

    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/independent-investigation-deliberate

    • Brian Goldfarb Says:

      Oh look, we’re back to that wonderfully even-handed (irony again, Aaron) site, mondoweiss.

      Sorry Aaron, you really must try harder and find evidence that is both real evidence and that we can grapple with.

  15. soupyone Says:

    Anything to avoid discussing these topics. It is a common ploy to dodge facing the issues of conspiracy thinking and where it often leads, to harcore racism.

    • aarondover Says:

      We are fundamentally an anti-racism group and call out Jew-hatred, Islamophobia and any racism we come across. We also try to educate people as often they are confused about fundamental issues, and often find the racism was born of ignorance. For example I have been contacted by Muslims from Bangladesh who did not know any Jews lived outside Israel and now do.

      • Brian Goldfarb Says:

        But not, apparently, anti-zionism.

        Strange, that.

        • aarondover Says:

          anti zionism is not racism, in fact some would argue that zionism is itself rooted in racist ideology. you must already know this.

        • Brian Goldfarb Says:

          “anti zionism is not racism”, not that is until it’s allied to BDS aimed at only Israel. Then it becomes racist. And as for “in fact some would argue that zionism is itself rooted in racist ideology”, that argument could be argued for any and every manifestation of nationalism. However, not that many such manifestations are accompanied by centuries long anti-group feeling, culminating in genocide.

          But that, of course, is irrelevant to the like of JfJfP.

  16. Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

    aaron dover isn’t contributing anything to a serious discussion about Holocaust commemoration or about antisemitism. He keeps quoting the same two or three sources counting “people I know” as a source.

    He refuses to engage meaningfully or answer direct questions.

    Why is he still here?

  17. Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

    aaron says: “anti zionism is not racism, in fact some would argue that zionism is itself rooted in racist ideology. you must already know this.”

    And antisemitism is not racism because there is no such thing as a semitic race.

    Life is wonderful to fools who accept facile answers to difficult questions.

    Yes Zionism is an ideology, it’s an ideology that tells people to fight against Jew hatred. That is why aaron and his justice for Palestinian Arabs who kill Jews are content not to deal with Jew hatred.

    As Avi in Jerusalem wrote, aaron’s simplistic logic makes real peace between Jews and Arabs more difficult.

    • aarondover Says:

      “Yes Zionism is an ideology, it’s an ideology that tells people to fight against Jew hatred.”

      No, it encourages Jew hatred by being a brutal ultranationalist movement founded in racial supremacy, using Jews as a human shield for its crimes, including those who have not given consent. Jacob, you support the massacre of innocent men, women and children. That is just one of the many crimes against humanity that you support. That’s your choice and others are free to make their own choices.

      • Brian Goldfarb Says:

        So, why is this formula not equally applicable to all other nationalisms? Or is it only Zionism (and thus, for the most part, Jews) that falls into this category? Further, where is your evidence for this assertion? And I mean citations, not just a string of unascribed quotes, or statements that you just made up. I really, really, do mean chapter and verse, so that we can examine your argument in the manner that it deserves…providing that it is presented in the way indicated.

        Otherwise it’s just assertive claptrap.

        The way it stands in the comment just above, the second paragraph fits extremely neatly into this frame: i.e., assertive claptrap.

      • Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

        aaron “No, it encourages Jew hatred by being a brutal ultranationalist movement founded in racial supremacy, using Jews as a human shield for its crimes, including those who have not given consent. Jacob, you support the massacre of innocent men, women and children. That is just one of the many crimes against humanity that you support. That’s your choice and others are free to make their own choices.”

        No aaron, you are deluded.

        Zionism does encourage “massacres of civilians.” First: Zionism is not a single system of beliefs nor is it a fixed ideology. Zionism was founded as a counter to Jew hatred expressed in pogroms and massacres of Jews. The way Jews go about defending themselves is not prescribed by Zionism.
        Since the beginning there have been many disagreement about how Zionism should accomplish its goals.

        Your hateful description of Jews who fight back “as racist” is both ignorant and hateful. You have accepted the views of antisemites about who and what Jews are.

        As I said above your organization stand for justice for all except Jews. That is a racist antisemitic view.

        Your one sided view of the Arab Israeli conflict shows us how your anti-Jewish racism works.

        You have posted many times here but all you said is that you are right and everyone else is wrong. You are unable to offer unbiased documentation for your claims. Your obsession with Jewish evil is very familiar: it’s been around since the inquisition, the pogroms: Jews where blamed for everything from outbreaks of disease to the murder of children and the instigators of all wars. From this point of view Jews are responsible for 9/11 and all the evils in the Middle East. From your point of view if the Jewish people did not exist there would be peace and harmony in the world.

        It’s the view adopted by Hamas, a genocidal organization which believes in the total annihilation of the Jewish people. It’s in their founding charter. That you never spoke about contemporary antisemitism, about the Hamas charter tells us all we need to know about you and your organization.

  18. David Hirsh Says:

    From JFJFP’s founding statement: “Jews for Justice for Palestinians is a network of Jews who are British or live in Britain, practising and secular, Zionist and not.” http://jfjfp.com/?page_id=2

    Yet one of its key spokespeople, Aaron Dover, says: Zionism “encourages Jew hatred by being a brutal ultranationalist movement founded in racial supremacy, using Jews as a human shield for its crimes, including those who have not given consent.”

    Aaron Dover’s position is untenable. He can’t take a position of responsibility in a group which is explicitly welcoming to “Zionists” while denouncing “Zionism” in those terms.

    I’m a JFJFP signatory and I don’t feel that this kind of conspiracy nut ranting antisemitic represents the statement in any sense; quite the opposite.

    • aarondover Says:

      Signatories have no right to remove other signatories. “this kind of conspiracy nut ranting antisemitic” does not purport to share your views. I do not represent a statement, I agree with the statement and meet the criteria, hence I became a signatory in 2005.

      I have as much right to publish my opinions as you do.

      Nobody forces you to read what I have to say, remember it was Engage and not I who decided to pick a fight with me on a public forum.

      • Brian Goldfarb Says:

        But no right not to expect to be queried on your views as represented here by you, nor to evade direct questions. The longer you continue to pretend that no-one has asked questions of you, etc, and merely reiterate what you have already said, the more you appear to be what you have, at least once, been accused of: being a troll.

        The only way to slough off this accusation is not by denying, but by responding directly, with evidence, that you believe makes your case.

        But the more you refuse to do this, the more it looks as though you don’t have the evidence to make that case.

        The choice is yours.

  19. aarondover Says:

  20. Jacob Arnon (@Jacob_Arnon) Says:

    aaron dover is a clown, a malicious clown but a clown. he is also a troll who thrives on being taken seriously. He embraced antisemitism because it’s the one topic he knows he will get a reaction.

    If he stopped being an antisemite he would nothing else to say on any topic.

    • aarondover Says:

    • Kerry Sanders Says:

      Said the non-Semite who insisted he was a Semite, so he could argue that others are being anti-Semitic, as he lobbied for the extermination of the REAL Semites.

      How hard is that clown makeup to get off at night?

      • Brian Goldfarb Says:

        As I said just above, aimed at Aaron Dover, but it serves for your contribution juat as well, Kerry Sanders: “This you consider a serious response to all that’s been aimed at you.

        That’s a joke and a sick one at that.

        Do us all a favour, and grow up.”

    • June Tobin Says:

      I believe that this is the perfect day to talk about the War being waged on the people of Palestine. To describe it as a small local conflict is an understatement. The point that seems to be missed is very simple. Persecution, displacement, torture, murder, apartheid, should not be happening to anyone today. We should have learned that very palpable lessons from the Holocaust. To perpetuate, ignore or support a regime that hasn’t learnt this lesson is just plain wrong. Insulting Mr Dover is also wrong!

      • Six of the best Says:

        I love the idea that the mass extermination of Jews is being presented as nothing other than to ‘a lesson’; a lesson not only equivalent to insulting Mr. Dover, but one that even now those fucking Jews have still not learnt! If even Hitler failed to ‘educate’ them, what the fuck must those Jews really be like?
        Poor old Adolf; but at least he tried; sigh.

    • June Tobin Says:

      Reviewer of discussion. I’ve read all the threads with great interest and the common theme is insult, bash, discredit, Mr Dover rather than address a regime that to my eyes are doing the same things to the People of Palestine that was done to the people in WWII and referred to as a Holocaust. ( not all were Jews). This clearly exposes your agenda. Those who have indulge in this attack on Aaron here rather than address the have shown their true colours. You care more about attacking one individual than you do about Holocaust Day or the Atrocities being committed by an Israeli regime on Palestine

      • Six of the best Says:

        Ms Tobin,
        This thread and the previous thread are about what Mr. Dover wrote about antisemitism. It was not about what he wrote about Israel. I appreciate the reasons why you cannot but change the subject to Israel. It is a consequence of both your and Mr Dover’s belief that Jews raise the question of antisemitism to support any and all acts of Israel, that anyone, Jewish or not, who raises the question of antisemitism are nothing more than unabashed supporters of what you have termed ‘Persecution, displacement, torture, murder, apartheid’. In effect, that should Jewish and non-Jewish anti-racists raise the question of antisemitism, they should not be believed; that it is ‘really’ a very clever ploy made for malevolent reasons. In other words, just as with Mr Dover, you peddle in traditional antisemitic myths about Jews as your last comment indicates.

        On one point though, you are near to expressing a truth; the true colours that is expressed here are yours (we know that Mr. Dover can speak for himself) and not mine. I have not expressed my views about Israel or Palestine, since it is irrelevant for a discussion on antisemitism (unless, of course, you think that non-Jewish people’s automatic response to Israel is to become antisemitic (a view I reject 100%) or that antisemitism is a legitimate (as opposed to a racist and distorted response) to what the State of Israel does.

        I do not have the authority to suggest this, but I am sure that should you or Mr Dover write a piece for this site on Israel they may well publish it. Until then, perhaps both you and Mr Dover can stick with the matter in hand – antisemitism and the antisemitic content of much of Mr Dover’s writing about Jews, antisemitism and the Holocaust (and not his comments of the State of Israel.

    • June Tobin Says:

      I sometimes struggle with a community or group of people who think they own the entire world’s sympathy for an horrendous act of war against them. This does not mean I do not feel empathy for or fail to recognise the history of the Holocaust. However there is not a world monopoly on who had the worst treatment at the hands of others. I am Irish, persecuted for centuries at the hands of the English. Neither me or my family who choose to live all around our world blame the current day people or authorities. The Irish lost over 3 million to a famine (during Queen Victoria’s time) exploited by the English (if we are dick measuring that’s on a par with the Holocaust. Are we dick measuring?). I choose to live in England and have a British Passport. I don’t ask for world pity or recognition. I just live in the now and not the past. I try to give my time to ensure that no other country, or culture of people suffer the same events of the past in this supposedly modern, free thinking caring world. Shame on those who cannot let go of the past and build a better future for ALL our children. Shame on this who choose to attack one individual rather than address the real issues

      • Brian Goldfarb Says:

        Why is it that people like Aaron Dover and June Tobin are incapable of responding to requests for evidence and argument based on that evidence, but resort to slogans time and time again.

        Actually, the Irish had a rough time at the hands of the English from the days of Richard II, if not earlier. But this article and thread are about Jews, antisemitism, Israel and the Middle east (including Gaza and the West Bank). No one (other, perhaps those raising the matter) is into “dick measuring”, as June Tobin so delicately puts it, but we are, or should be, into evidence, argument and rational discussion.

        Pity so many people who come here find these words and phrases anathema.

    • June Tobin Says:

      I Travel the world quite extensively and also the UK. I lived in one of the biggest Jewish communities in North London for most of my life. I have never in all my 50 years, experienced attacks, racist or otherwise on the Jewish community. In the 1970s the British Government perpetuated crimes in Northern Ireland to make them look like the IRA did them. It’s very suspicious to me that less than 2 weeks after France voted to recognise Palestine as the rightful state, and Israel warned them of the consequences of doing so, that a Kosher bakery was targeted in Paris. And I am neither Jewish or Palestinian so am neutral in this argument. I also find it very disturbing that here in the UK the London Jewish community are allowed by the authorities to have their own private police force, with patrol cars, just in case of a threat. Maybe us Irish, or Polish, or Muslim community should also apply for own private police force. How far do you think we would get. Stop citing every argument with the rest of the world as being anti semeticism, climb out of your bubble and recognise what the whole world sees. Your community are no longer victims. Open your eyes and stop bullying Aaron Dover because as a Jew he dares to criticise the current Israeli regime for their inhuman crimes against Palestine

      • Richard Gold Says:

        I’ve now banned June Tobin from commenting.

        • Kerry Sanders Says:

          Jews are amongst the least persecuted people across the world today. The bombing of one bakery is hardly an excuse for terrorizing and stealing the land of a sovereign people. Forming a nation which prioritizes one group of people over another is in itself a deeply racist act. That seems to be the issue that none of the Zionists in this group want to discuss.

        • aarondover Says:

          Why, because she confirmed she isn’t Jewish?

          Richard you amended your comment, I know because I was emailed the original, your original comment clarified why you banned her. I guess you just make up the rules as you go along who may comment and who may not, and which you allow through. I will not be commenting on here until a clear and acceptable (not racist) comments policy is published. Such bullies! Why can’t June have her say?

          Also I know that Richard has not approved various other peoples comments. Have you ever though of working for the Israeli Military Censor Richard?

          begins
          —–
          “It’s very suspicious to me that less than 2 weeks after France voted to recognise Palestine as the rightful state, and Israel warned them of the consequences of doing so, that a Kosher bakery was targeted in Paris.”

          I’ve now banned June Tobin from commenting.”
          —-

        • Richard Gold Says:

          “I will not be commenting on here until a clear and acceptable (not racist) comments policy is published.”

          Bye-bye

          https://engageonline.wordpress.com/comments-policy/

  21. Review of discussion Says:

    ‘Anything to avoid discussing these topics. It is a common ploy to dodge facing the issues of conspiracy thinking and where it often leads, to harcore racism.’

    I have noticed that too.

    Note the way that whenever aarondover is asked to discuss his views on antisemitism and the Holocaust, he changes the subject to Israel. Not only that he then accuses everyone else but himself of not entering into a discussion with him. And then, of course, he falls back on the lie that he has been called ‘a kapo’, a ‘self-hater’ and ‘an antisemite’.

    He is obviously not the first two, but merely being a Jew is no defence to the third. As we have seen in this thread and the previous one (I am thinking of the rather subdued comments of ‘Responding” and the somewhat hyperbolic comments of ‘Pots and Kettles’ and others), aarondover has been shown to constantly repeat arguments that differ little or at all with those pushed by antisemites.

    His recourse? To fall back on yet a further recourse of antisemites – that one can’t criticize Jews/Zionists without begin called an antisemite. Likewise, as is evident in his last picture, he still holds fervently to his belief that in talking about antisemitism and in challenging his view on this matter, commentators are doing no more that pushing a ‘pro-Israel agenda’; that is, that they are lying when raising with him the dubious nature of his own comments.

    aarindover’s use these well-worn cliches is nicely summed up where he says,
    ‘What I fundamentally don’t understand is why you are attacking me over my views and seem completely uninterested in discussing the policies you support and defend by doing so’.

    • Kerry Sanders Says:

      The Holocaust ended 70 years ago. Discrimination against Jews has not been an issue across most of the world since then. At some point, Zionists need to stop painting themselves as victims of bias, and start accepting some responsibility for valid criticism over their Nazi-inspired activities in the world we all live in TODAY.

      • Brian Goldfarb Says:

        “Discrimination against Jews has not been an issue across most of the world since then.” Try telling that to the Jews attacked across the world in every year since then or at least since 1948. Try telling that to the victims of the French supermarket attack. And so on, and on, and on…

        Your next sentence “At some point, Zionists need to stop painting themselves as victims of bias, and start accepting some responsibility for valid criticism over their Nazi-inspired activities in the world we all live in TODAY” is another example of claptrap. You clearly haven’t noticed (because it would ruin your rant) that Israel actually has a functioning police force and judicial system that actually tries and, when the evidence justifies it, finds guilty and judicially punishes Israelis guilty of offences against Arab-Israelis and Palestinians. You also have clearly failed to note, for the same reason, that Israel has a vibrant democracy and a remarkably free press that often criticises its politicans and their policies.

        Further, careful reading of the Jewish press (both hard copy and online) would show much criticism of Israel and its policies.

        But of course, to acknowledge any of this would be anathema to you and your ilk. You really do need to read what others write (or hear what they actually say) rather than read what you want them to have written or said what you want them to have said.

        In other words, join the real world, and leave the fantasy one you presently inhabit.

    • aarondover Says:

      Tell you what, there was a neighbour of mine and he kept harassing me until one day told me to go stick my head in a gas oven. Sadly for him I recorded it on my phone. I got him nicked and convicted. I’m an antisemite hunter, in fact we have to call out Jew-hatred and islamophobia the whole time. I have a trophy cabinet full of exposed race haters of all flavours. I am an anti-racist, however inconvenient that is to your propaganda.

      “merely being a Jew is no defence to the third” well, busting Jew haters for a living is a pretty good one. In fact; it’s exactly the same defence you would use were I to suggest you are an antisemite by attacking Jews who do not agree with you.

      • Review of discussion Says:

        ‘Tell you what, there was a neighbour of mine and he kept harassing me until one day told me to go stick my head in a gas oven.’

        According to your essay published on another thread, and your view that Israel is the cause of antisemitism today (especially Gaza 2014), I would have thought that you would have held yourself responsible for the horrible antisemitism you experienced. After all, according to your logic, you must have done something to elicit such a thoroughly disgusting response?

        i’t’s exactly the same defence you would use were I to suggest you are an antisemite by attacking Jews who do not agree with you’.
        Not at all. I am attacking you and you only Despite your claim that you ‘call out’ Jew-hatred, that apparently has not stopped you adopting antisemitic positions as your own (and I am not talking about what you are saying about Israel (I don’t really care what you say about Israel)), I am talking about what you are saying about Jews in the diaspora and your default position, as evident in your essay that appears on the jjfp facebook page, that Jews invent antisemitism, that they do so because that are acting mal fide in so doing, that Jews cause antisemitism, along with the other shit you write (of course, in your personal capacity) about ‘false flags’. The point I am making, and here I will spell it out, antisemitism is not personal, it is a view of the world that one adopts (I think someone else said that elsewhere, but I agree with it); and, as we have seen, you have adopted it as your own as regards these issues. Being Jewish does not offer an immunity for a poverty of thought.

        Again, you have it completely wrong. It is you who are libelling an entire people and are doing so with the instruments of the antisemites’ arsenal (that Jews lie for their own parochial self-interests; that Jews are behind all the world’s disasters; etc,) I, on the other hand, are speaking only about you; I am not speaking about anyone else, whether they be members of jjfp or any other group (Jewish or not).
        Kind of ironic, isn’t it, that of all the people here and all the things you have written about antisemitism and the Holocaust, it is you who is claiming to have been racially abused. But, then again, the thing about antisemites is that they always see themselves as the victim of ‘Jewish power’ and ‘Jewish privilege’.
        Actually, I am beginning to wonder of your a real person, or simply a computer programme that pushes out the same old crap against Jews that has been around from decades, if not centuries. For those aware of only a superficial level of antisemitic literature, not one of your comments even approaches novelty, let alone originality.

        • aarondover Says:

          All of you supporters and apologists of massacres of innocents, playing the victim card over and over, look at every single post you make, claiming victimhood over and over in ever more convoluted ways that defy any analysis. Which is why the last thing you would ever do is hold a microscope up to a single one of the allegations you make. Hypocrites, hiding behind fake names, and saying you wonder if I’m a real person. I’m a real human alright which is more than can be said for some. Sorry if your precious Jewish feelings got hurt by the Jewish guy who questions Israel. Boo hoo. Poor you. Some unpeople get more than their feelings hurt. You don’t act like fearful people cowering from antisemites. You act like a bunch of racist bullies.

          Between 2,127[28] and 2,310[25][27] Gazans were killed (including 513 children) [27][55] and between 10,895[30] and 11,100[27] were wounded. 66 Israeli soldiers, 5 Israeli civilians (including one child)[56] and one Thai civilian were killed[21] and 469 IDF soldiers and 261 Israeli civilians were injured.[23] The Gaza Health Ministry, UN and some human rights groups reported that 69–75% of the Palestinian casualties were civilians;[21][26][30] Israeli officials estimated that around 50% of those killed were civilians.[31][57] On 5 August, OCHA stated that 520,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip (approximately 30% of its population) might have been displaced, of whom 485,000 needed emergency food assistance[58] and 273,000 were taking shelter in 90 UN-run schools.[59] 17,200 Gazan homes were totally destroyed or severely damaged, and 37,650 homes suffered damage but were still inhabitable.[21] In Israel, an estimated 5,000[60] to 8,000[61] citizens temporarily fled their homes due to the threat of rocket and mortar attacks.[60] Nearly 3,000 properties in Israel suffered direct damage from rockets and mortar shells fired from Gaza.[49]

  22. Kerry Sanders Says:

    “On Holocaust Memorial Day, let’s remember what happened in the heart of Europe to the European Jews.”

    And on the rest of the days, let’s remember what Zionists in Israel (many of whom are the direct descendants of those same Europeans Jews) are doing to innocent Palestinians TODAY, so we don’t have to start another remembrance day 70 years from now.

    • June Tobin Says:

      Amen x

      • Brian Goldfarb Says:

        Yet again, no evidence, no argument, just assertion, verging on the antisemitic. Tell us, Kerry, just what (with citation so we can check on your claims) those nasty “Zionists in Israel (many of whom are the direct descendants of those same Europeans Jews) are doing to innocent Palestinians TODAY…” And then demonstrate that the statement is not, per se, antisemitic.

        And, incidentally, for anyone enamoured of the claim that Israel is an apartheid state, you should find out just what the Rome Statute on Apartheid has to say. To make it easy, here’s a link and a quote: http://untreaty.un.org/cod/icc/statute/99_corr/2.htm

        Article 7 Crimes against humanity

        Section 2(h) “The crime of apartheid” means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime; ”

        A couple of years ago, I forced an opponent of the right of Israel to exists to acknowledge that the definition didn’t apply within Green Line Israel, and across the border in the West Bank, Israel was the occupying power, and thus the definition didn’t apply there either.

        • aarondover Says:

          You say you won an argument with someone a couple of years ago. Well done. Israel is, of course, an apartheid state by the definition you give, and South African delegates visiting the West Bank have described it as worse than that which they had faced.

        • aarondover Says:

          Here you can find out in detail about the racial discrimination enshrined in many laws, including the additional ones since you “won your argument” a couple of years ago. You must be a serious and committed racist to be working to defend this area of Israeli law.

          http://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

  23. Review of discussion Says:

    And as to Islamophobia, I really don’t want to get into a fight with you about that.
    Assuming what can be taken to be your anti-racist position – judging what you have said about other forms of racissm (i.e. antisemitism) – I assume you to toe the Islamophic line that Muslims bring Islamophobia down upon themselves (for whatever reason) and when Muslims talk about the Islamophobia, they are ‘really’ doing it to silence criticism of either ‘Islam’ (of which Islamophobes know nothing) or of radical Islamicism.
    It is a position that, you should not be surprised to learn, I reject entirely as nothing other than pure racism.

    • aarondover Says:

      The racism that is directed against the Jews is not of a special character, it is not exceptional in any way. Muslims for the most part simply do not have any interest in nationalist projects such as the “new caliphate” ideas in the way that most Jews support Zionism. So, if nationalist endeavours are not undertaken with their support, they are clearly blameless.

      Muslims, like everyone normal, want to just get on peacefully with their lives without their countries being invaded and living under occupation conditions when the West just won’t leave them alone.

      The racist narrative against Muslims is simply essential to maintaining any public support for our projects in the region, it is a political necessity.

  24. Avi in Jerusalem Says:

    Apart from the fact that I enjoy life here in Israel as I have for the past 40 odd years, reading the ignorant venom spewed by Messers Dover, Tobin and Sanders reminds me of the one of the subsidiary reasons why I left in the UK.

    Although I am not a historian, I like to see what is going on in a historical perspective. History tends to repeat itself as it is humans who create history and there are certain traits, positive and negative, which come back from time to time.
    As a Jew (thank you Howard Jacobson, please read A.Dover), I am very sensitive to periodic bouts of Jew hatred. Some are more lethal than others. Different Jews react in different ways. The overall effect of Jew hatred in the 19th and 20th centuries, before the industrialised slaughter of the Holocaust, was to drive the Jews out of Europe and the Moslem world to Israel and North America.

    Reading the ignorant propaganda regurgitated buy the persons mentioned above makes we wonder what sort of society produced these people? They are willfully ignorant and their stated views reverberate with themes which go back hundreds, if not thousands of years.

    Their verbiage insults my relatives (all my Father’s family and I assume a lot of my Mother’s too) who were murdered by the Nazis and their helpers. The comparison with Palestinians really is obscene and this needs to be said and to be emphasized. The fact that these ideas are acceptable in so called civilized society is not only a red light but one where we are all reaping the results. These are the “Butters” referred to by Salman Rushdie.

    • Kerry Sanders Says:

      Please don’t conflate criticism of child murderers with “Jew hatred.” Those of us in this thread that have been critical of Israel’s decades-long abuse of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West bank, have been careful to avowing use of the term “Jewish.” Our choice of term, rather consistently, has been “Zionism.” Zionism is wholly incompatible with Judaism, which was ostensibly created by those who believed that God appointed the Jews “to be his chosen people in order to set an example of holiness and ethical behaviour to the world.”

    • Kerry Sanders Says:

      Show us all, pray tell, where all this “Jew hatred” is today. As a result of non-stop reminders of the evil of the Holocaust, Jews can now relax in comfort knowing that they are amongst the least abused people on the face of the planet. There are always exceptions, but an argument claiming that self-serving Zionists should be allowed to be monsters because of the threat of ongoing persecution, is simply a lie of huge proportions.

  25. Lev Bronstein Says:

    Deborah Lipstadt in 2009 seems very relevant to this discussion:
    JTA: How has Holocaust denial changed since your trial and book?
    LIPSTADT: I see the evolution of Holocaust denial — there is what I call “soft-core denial.” Hard-core denial is David Irving or Bishop [Richard] Williamson. Soft-core is more slippery. It’s “Why do we have to hear so much about the Holocaust?” or saying “the genocide of the Palestinians.” Soft-core denial is not denying the facts, but either inverting it so the victims become the perpetrators — “Why did the Germans hate the Jews? Because they Jews were rich and conniving,” — as if to say they deserved it. It’s justifying it. Soft-core denial is also making a false comparison, and that dilutes what the Holocaust was. It’s a much more slippery kind of manifestation, but it’s very much there.

  26. Mira Vogel Says:

    Those of you who commented and didn’t get through – after taking a hell of a lot of liberties with our comments policy you finally wore out our long-suffering and usually very sweet-natured moderator’s patience. And I’m not referring to myself.

    Now go and have a weekend and leave the Jews alone.


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